The All Leaders Challenge Game Bullpen
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
Are you talking about better AI? I messed around with this, and at times they were better, and other times not so much. A few times they would not expand at all. They were playing OCC, I guess.
As far as fractal goes, I would like to see you move away from this as well. Too many times it is either isolated or on a long snaky pangea type landmass. This makes it too easy for the human player to manipulate relations and tech trade, at least I think so. And takes the fun out of finding out who the neighbors are.
If you are looking for more of a challenge, would adding a civ and playing random # if continents help? There is a new speed mod out now that helps reduce the turn time in unmodded games. I have played with it a bit and it seems to be pretty effective.
I tried to be smart, not a big success obviously
.My point was more like "you'll get tired and quit long before the end" to be honest.
you're your own boss, so you choose.
Cyrus was leader of WotM 7. This means that a good deal of people just played him. He's a big warmonger, though with good synergetic options.
+ some of the best having just played him there is quite some reference in the gotm subforum...
now now nowAs for America, I have the greatest respect and affection for our cousins south of the border. (I love calling them that, since it makes them do a mental double-take.) However, I preferred Washington's trait combination before Warlords and played several vanilla games with him. Like Catherine, Genghis Khan, and Caesar, I think he got nerfed and that's unfortunate, especially since his UU and UB come so late.
I understand toning down certain game features that are borderline exploits (like the CS Slingshot, chopping, and so on). I can even live with nerfing some of the best UUs like Redcoats and Cossacks. However, I don't understand why they felt compelled to make some of the fans' favourite leaders less formidable. If a player wants a challenge, he/she can always try moving up a level or playing as a different leader; heck, I've practically made an on-line career out of the latter. The AI, on the other hand, usually needs all the help it can get. I've been tempted to change some of the traits back to their old settings for my off-line games.
(Though you can go overboard there; just for fun I made a mod that changed Julius Caesar to Aggressive and Organized, as well as replacing Fishing with The Wheel as a starting tech. Cheap barracks, easy hook-up of early resources, and especially automatic Combat I Praetorians made him ridiculously overpowered.)
do you say you want to play a game with rome just to get your personnal best score a bit higher?
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
i don't follow gotm, but i can tell you cyrus is a big warmonger. i am not a big warmonger, not by any stretch, in the early game. but as cyrus i've cleared out my continent of up to 3 rival civs before they met the other continent in three different games! he's the only one i've ever done that with, and he's really fun. i had to make a "don't play Cyrus" rule for now, he makes it too easy for me. and his UB is spiffy for builders, lets you have nice big cities.
anyway, i see the Better AI discussion coming up again and you know my opinion on that. which is "please no".
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
I prefer not to introduce any mods into the ALCs. I want anyone to be able to load the saved games rather than having to find, dl, and install a mod. And I want the games to be comparable to the regular game; a lot of players don't play with mods, or if they do, everybody has a favourite. Far better to use the standard game as a point of reference.
(That being said, I have played a couple of games with the Better AI, and like martin031 I found it to be a little inconsistent.)
Moving to fractal was an attempt to get away from the very standard game that the continents-based ALCs were becoming. The latest game, as Mehmed, features a truly isolated start, so that's a challenge and a big learning opportunity for everyone right there. I find the fractal maps have a wonderful way of presenting their own sets of challenges. (Strangely, I've noticed that copper seems surprisingly scarce on fractal maps while horses and iron are quite common.)
To me, frankly, the discussion around the game is the highlight of the series, more so than the game updates themselves, though I do strive to make those educational and entertaining. I may not (and often don't) execute everyone's advice optimally, but at least everyone following the games gets an opportunity to see that advice and contribute to the debates. To my mind, the game is just a springboard for the discussion.
pigswill
fly (one day)
I suspect that while the discussion may be the highlight for you the game updates are the highlight for 90%+ of your subscribers (including me). Its one thing to talk about such and such a strategy but its seeing what you do with it (or not!) that keeps the interest (and the ideas) going.
Isolated start is certainly a different challenge, fortunate that you got it playing Mehmed.
Isolated start is certainly a different challenge, fortunate that you got it playing Mehmed.
pholkhero
Deviant Mind
i actually thought it was perhaps Blake's AI (which I use), but i find that more and more, my military tech order is BW (yup, no Copper) > Archery > IW
btw, sisiutil, i'm immensely enjoying your series and look forward to more
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Okay, but there's definite synergy between the updates and the discussion.
It's one thing to postulate strategies in theory in the strategy threads and articles. The idea of these games is to see how those strategies and tactics play out, especially when variables such as the geography and neighbours come into play.
OTAKUjbski
TK421
Have you read the spoiler thread? It's one page with 95% fewer posts and hits.Even my 2 stupid "Is this an exploit ..." posts have seen more activity than that!
The between-post activity may feel a little lengthy sometimes, but there is definitely a synergy in those discussions. They are quite possibly what make ALC's so popular!
This could just get too involving and confusing, but would it be possible to make [some] future ALCs SALCs?
There have been so many different ideas and strategies posted that I can't help but wonder just how different things would be right now had we chosen any of those different strategies.
I'm not certain exactly how to implement succession gaming into the ALC without confusing the issue or putting 'too many spoons in the pot' but certainly believe if the element was there, it could shed a lot of light on different strategies and why they work best in certain situations over others.
-- my 2c
On the topic of different maps: Sisiutil, have you tried the Shuffle option?
I've been playing with it lately and I like it a lot.
IIUC, it gives you one of four map types -- Continents, Fractal, Pangaea and Archipelago -- randomly with an equal chance. You'll realize pretty quickly which type you are on, but it definitely adds an interesting extra level of suspense in the first few turns.
If you want to try different map types, maybe this might be a way to go?
cheers,
Waldo
I've been playing with it lately and I like it a lot.
IIUC, it gives you one of four map types -- Continents, Fractal, Pangaea and Archipelago -- randomly with an equal chance. You'll realize pretty quickly which type you are on, but it definitely adds an interesting extra level of suspense in the first few turns.
If you want to try different map types, maybe this might be a way to go?
cheers,
Waldo
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
I've seen that option, of course, but I've always wondered what the difference is between it and Fractal, aside from the fact that Shuffle will occasionally give you an Archipelago map.
And I'm not sure I'm too enthused about the Archipelago map type; I've tried a couple of off-line games with them and they seem like an isolated start, only worse. I found them very frustrating--resources hither and yon and only accessible via ship, far-flung cities to claim those resources that are exorbitantly expensive and difficult to defend, war made tedious by the necessity of transferring units aboard ships that only carry 2 units and move 2 tiles at a time... you get the picture.
Give me land, lots of land, and the starry skies above...
Archipelago games are tough, but interesting. After all, the AI civs are under the same constraints!
You have to think ahead. Early wars are much harder (it's not easy to do an axe rush when you have to deliver the Axemen in triremes, movement 2, two units at a time). Civs with early UUs are penalized somewhat; civs that start with Fishing get an edge.
But it's interesting. And it's not really like an isolated start on Fractal. Four times out of five, you have one or more civs within trireme reach. So you have someone to talk to, trade with, and attack.
Also, barbs are rarely an issue. Archipelago landmasses are usually small enough that fogbusting is easy, and they also tend to provide convenient chokepoints.
Give the archipelago map another try. You might find it growing on you.
Waldo
You have to think ahead. Early wars are much harder (it's not easy to do an axe rush when you have to deliver the Axemen in triremes, movement 2, two units at a time). Civs with early UUs are penalized somewhat; civs that start with Fishing get an edge.
But it's interesting. And it's not really like an isolated start on Fractal. Four times out of five, you have one or more civs within trireme reach. So you have someone to talk to, trade with, and attack.
Also, barbs are rarely an issue. Archipelago landmasses are usually small enough that fogbusting is easy, and they also tend to provide convenient chokepoints.
Give the archipelago map another try. You might find it growing on you.
Waldo
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
I see your point. I seem to recall that I tried those maps as Rome. Though Rome starts with Fishing, it was frustrating not being able to use Praetorians effectively.
Sounds like I should try the map while playing as someone like Elizabeth--also starts with Fishing, but has a later UU.
Maybe I'll give it a try off-line and see what I think. Even so, I'd rather not get an archipelago may when I have an early UU, and more than I'd want an isolated start. I may choose map types accordingly. Persia, for example, should probably start on a continents map.
Sounds like I should try the map while playing as someone like Elizabeth--also starts with Fishing, but has a later UU.
Maybe I'll give it a try off-line and see what I think. Even so, I'd rather not get an archipelago may when I have an early UU, and more than I'd want an isolated start. I may choose map types accordingly. Persia, for example, should probably start on a continents map.
pigswill
fly (one day)
archipelago is the map for Ragnar
manu-fan
Emperor
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2006
- Messages
- 1,005
If you don't like Archipelago, just do your own Shuffle before starting an ALC
Roll a die
1, 2 Pangea
3,4 Continents
5, 6 Fractal
And don't cheat!! Oh look, I rolled Fractal again
Cheers.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
I could always combine the pre-game thread with a map poll. I kind of like that idea.If you don't like Archipelago, just do your own Shuffle before starting an ALC
Roll a die
1, 2 Pangea
3,4 Continents
5, 6 Fractal
And don't cheat!! Oh look, I rolled Fractal again
Cheers.
Admiral Kutzov
Idiot Emeritus
or have a shadow thread where volunteers try the strategies you reject for a set...
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
well, the saves are already there for each round that he plays. and sometimes people have grabbed them and played it out their own way, and posted about their results. this has happened even before the spoiler thread for the current game; people have been good about using spoiler boxes and/or not posting until his game is over. i like hearing about those shadows, but i don't think this series is a good choice for an SG. keep reading, after i explain why i don't like your idea, i do give a suggestion to encourage the concept behind it
S mentioned a long time ago that he's a former teacher. i'd argue that he's a current teacher, here. in the ALC threads, he teaches us, with help from others in the threads, often by making mistakes, and not by standing up at the front of the classroom, definitely in a discussion format, but it's a teaching kind of thing in its way. i've learned a lot from reading SGs as well but that's totally different. i vote don't mix the two. there are plenty of SGs already, i like having ALC also, since there aren't plenty of those. there's S and there's aelf, there's another whose name i'm blanking out on atm (i blame cough medicine) and i can't think of any other than those 3. i'd love to hear about more if there are more!
S, i don't know how often you save the game and how long you keep the saves around. i also don't know how you don't go crazy naming all the games Sisutil--i tend to have 3 or more games in various stages so i have to have different names in all of them *giggle*. but, maybe if you want to encourage the shadowing option more, you can keep saves on your hard drive at key points other than just at the end of the round (when making a crucial decision about what to research next, what to pick from liberalism or the oracle if that's been debated a lot in the thread, before starting a war if we've bickered over that, etc). and then just have those available if anyone wants them, to shadow from that specific point with their alternate scenario. i don't know if there are limits to the number of attachments you can put in a thread, or how confusing it might be, it's just a thought.
flamingzaroc121
Emperor
i think you should only do a pangea if you are going to be warring heavily
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