What are the personalities of each Civ/leader?

Did you actually read the spreadsheet? Or did you just miss the categories like warmonger hate, boldness, loyalty, etc.? These directly affect how an AI behaves in diplomacy...

Wel yeah there are flavors. But it isn't balanced out.

Most leaders have a loyolty rating 6 or 5 wich is pretty low. While a lot of people have 4 some have 7

ANd some people who have a high loyolty rating have a high denouncing rating which in turn just means they will denounce you even if you are friends.
Or most of the AI have a 5 rating of victory competivenes in generals ,wonders,city states and so on that means they will backstabb you most of the time if you are winning or doing something they want to do..

Most leaders have a low forgiviness rating So with the so much denouncements and warmonger hate it just doesn't work well.


Olso some Leaders that have a high warmonger hate olso have a high decleration of war rate Not really personallities here.


It seams a little bit random placed


Olso with a system with forming friends and denouncing enemies the AI should be able to pick sites and not change every few turns because that ruins the hole "denouncing system" Its olmost worthless to sign a decleration of friendship.


It could actually work If when the game start a AI picks a neighbours who He hates.

I have to admit they do act different but they all act crazy and its impossible to have a ally during a certain game.
 
well, I'm not saying the implementation is perfect. But there IS a system whereas the personalities are different and it does affect how the leader acts.

For instance Korea has a very high loyalty rating. In a recent game I became good friends with them, real allies. Our cities were even kind of intermingled together without causing any distrust because of the close border. Occasionally they asked me for some gold, and I gave it to them. They were steadfast allies to me throughout the end game and never backstabbed me even with ample opportunity. It was kind of nice.

Does that one piece of anecdotal evidence mean the diplo system is perfect? No. Maybe some adjustments to the spreadsheet values would help, I don't know. I just wanted to point out that everything is not random.
 
well, I'm not saying the implementation is perfect. But there IS a system whereas the personalities are different and it does affect how the leader acts.

For instance Korea has a very high loyalty rating. In a recent game I became good friends with them, real allies. Our cities were even kind of intermingled together without causing any distrust because of the close border. Occasionally they asked me for some gold, and I gave it to them. They were steadfast allies to me throughout the end game and never backstabbed me even with ample opportunity. It was kind of nice.

Does that one piece of anecdotal evidence mean the diplo system is perfect? No. Maybe some adjustments to the spreadsheet values would help, I don't know. I just wanted to point out that everything is not random.


My problem is that only a few leaders have a high loyolty rating

And this is A DLC so people who don't want to buy the DLC don't have acces to it.

BTW do you know where I can find those XML's so I can change them?

OLso every leader has a 5 war rate. So they are all warmongers
 
My problem is that only a few leaders have a high loyolty rating

True, there are only a few. Maybe there could be a couple more. but on the other hand you don't want too many.

And this is A DLC so people who don't want to buy the DLC don't have acces to it.

Fair enough.

BTW do you know where I can find those XML's so I can change them?

I think you can find the answer here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/archive/index.php/t-381106.html

OLso every leader has a 5 war rate. So they are all warmongers

Not sure where you are getting that from. Under "Major Civ Biases - War" I see different values ranging from 3 (Gandhi) to 8 (Monty).
 
Not sure where you are getting that from. Under "Major Civ Biases - War" I see different values ranging from 3 (Gandhi) to 8 (Monty).

You are talking about the exteme parts here all the rest have a minimum of 5

That means they are programmed to go to war.


Olso Washington and the siam guy have high warmogner rate but a high war rate :sad:
 
I really think the game would be too easy if there were too many loyal civs. Also, it would not be very historically accurate. IMO history shows us that nations generally only support other nations when it's also in their best interest. No one is doing it out of the goodness of their heart due just to "loyalty".

I think the intent of the diplo system in this game, when compared to previous versions, is to make the AI more ruthless and Machiavellian. Like they are always trying to win, not just to make the game more fun or easier for the human. Personally I like this model. If all the civs had a lower "war" modifier, the human player would be able to exploit it. In the current system, the best way to deter a DOW is to keep a strong army yourself. IMO this cuts to the core of true geopolitics and is actually a pretty good system. You shouldn't be able to get away with a weak military and expect to not be invaded. That is just history 101.
 
You are talking about the exteme parts here all the rest have a minimum of 5

That means they are programmed to go to war.

From what I gather these attributes work interactively - so they may be 'programmed to go to war' based on their warmonger attribute, but whether or not they actually go to war, and who they go to war with, will be determined by other attributes like Loyalty which dictate their reaction to diplomatic overtures, who their friends are, who's been denounced and so forth.

Which in principle is probably good design; in Civ games war is the outcome of failed diplomacy and the only situation in which it much matters whether a civ likes you or not (except in past versions of diplo victory). So surely you want a system where leaders are likely to go to war if you don't do enough to dissuade them, as opposed to civs you can happily ignore throughout the game in the sure knowledge they won't actually do anything. For example, in most games I've played Gandhi tends to hate me, but he will almost never go to war even if he's been hostile for most of the game, so I tend not to much care if he dislikes me.

And isn't 5 an average sort of value on the scale the game uses, rather than a value which suggests they're all likely to be warmongers?

The reason I think that this approach doesn't work the way it's supposed to in Civ V is that the diplomacy system isn't designed well enough - most of the things that affect relationships (including the really big one, settling near their territory/settling territory they want) are at least partially outside the player's control. So if you have a system that relies on the player controlling their diplomatic relations in order to avoid war, but which simultaneously gives that player very few options to control those same relations, you're going to get more declarations of war than you ought to.

I really think the game would be too easy if there were too many loyal civs. Also, it would not be very historically accurate. IMO history shows us that nations generally only support other nations when it's also in their best interest. No one is doing it out of the goodness of their heart due just to "loyalty".

Realism has never featured in Civ diplomacy, and it's hardly a notable feature of Civ V generally. The reason you need things like loyalty in the game is because decisions about whether X is a good ally from the point of view of your best interests demands a far higher ability to understand your own interests and how the odds of a good outcome will be affected by allying with Y or declaring war on Z than checking a statistic, an ability which is far beyond the capability of even a good AI. It's very far beyond the capability of a Civ V AI that struggles to recognise that it's in its best interest to complete the spaceship if it's going for a science victory.

To be honest, it's already a large part of the reason Civ V diplomacy is flawed that the AI is trying to pull off more complex tasks than in previous games and can't handle that, let alone any more added detail.

I think the intent of the diplo system in this game, when compared to previous versions, is to make the AI more ruthless and Machiavellian.

Not necessarily more 'ruthless' - what it does seem to be trying to do is to make the diplomacy system more dynamic, apparently as a response to criticism that Civ IV was too predictable. You can't always rely on the same behaviour having the same results, or on relations remaining static because you traded favourably 3,000 years ago. This is what the denouncement/declaration system seems to represent - you can be getting on brilliantly with another civ, right up until someone else denounces you and they think "hang on, is this relationship really a wise idea after all? Can he actually be trusted?" The fact that declarations/denoucements only last a limited time likewise allows relationships to change over time much more than they would in Civ IV.

Once again, this is a great innovation in principle, and denouncements/declarations are a clever tool to influence relationships between two rivals indirectly in a way that was less feasible in the older games. But the trouble, again, is that the AI can't handle it. Civ IV asked its AI to perform a much simpler task - basically, to count its plus and minus modifiers, all of which accumulated over time and didn't really change over the course of the game except for the odd change of religion or civics, and make decisions entirely on that basis. By its nature that's a predictable system, but it is at least one a simple AI can understand and execute. By contrast the denoucement etc. system is one that relies on the AI knowing who its rivals are, what the likely outcome in terms of interactions between those civs will be, what the likely outcome will be in terms of those civs' relations with it, etc. etc. All stemming from just one decision. Being unable to handle this kind of decision-making, the AI instead seems to end up choosing who it denounces at any given time largely at random.

Like they are always trying to win, not just to make the game more fun or easier for the human.

Again, a problem resulting from overcomplexity. The game *should* be trying to win, I don't really understand people attempting to use this supposed feature as a criticism. But Civ is a complex game that demands long-term planning and an understanding of several different possible routes to victory. The AI doesn't really try to win, and isn't capable of doing so, except in the simplest sense of trying to have a higher score than its rivals. It will even build two spaceship parts and then stop building any more when it's in a position where it could win. It's all stuff that is a great improvement over previous Civ titles in principle, but simply doesn't work in practice.
 
@PhilBowles

I can understand your argument. To some extent I agree - the goals were lofty and the implementation may not be perfect. But I really do prefer this model to any of the predecessors. Most of the time for instance, when I get backstabbed (which a lot of people complain about), usually I end up coming to the conclusion that I had it coming. What was I thinking leaving that city undefended next to the Russians? etc, etc.

From what I remember in civ 4 (don't play it much anymore) diplomacy was really pretty simplistic. Religion was way too powerful for instance. And why should the player be able to see all the diplo modifiers? There should be some element of surprise when it comes to diplomacy...that is the very core of diplomacy. If one side knew exactly what the other side was thinking, then what is the point of having diplomats at all? "Oh just give them a gift of gold, that's worth +3 influence points....that's enough to cross the threshold so they won't invade us tomorrow". that is not how diplomacy works. Nations do not make the decision to go to war based on diplo modifiers. They decide to go to war because they want land, or resources, or whatever, and have a military advantage. That reality is better expressed in the Civ5 model than previous models, in my opinion.
 
@PhilBowles

I can understand your argument. To some extent I agree - the goals were lofty and the implementation may not be perfect. But I really do prefer this model to any of the predecessors. Most of the time for instance, when I get backstabbed (which a lot of people complain about), usually I end up coming to the conclusion that I had it coming. What was I thinking leaving that city undefended next to the Russians? etc, etc.

From what I remember in civ 4 (don't play it much anymore) diplomacy was really pretty simplistic. Religion was way too powerful for instance. And why should the player be able to see all the diplo modifiers? There should be some element of surprise when it comes to diplomacy...that is the very core of diplomacy. If one side knew exactly what the other side was thinking, then what is the point of having diplomats at all? "Oh just give them a gift of gold, that's worth +3 influence points....that's enough to cross the threshold so they won't invade us tomorrow". that is not how diplomacy works. Nations do not make the decision to go to war based on diplo modifiers. They decide to go to war because they want land, or resources, or whatever, and have a military advantage. That reality is better expressed in the Civ5 model than previous models, in my opinion.

I completely agree on all counts, and have argued as much elsewhere. Some of the new modifiers, such as 'we want your territory/Wonders/city-states/victory condition' are very much better in principle, and since they added the rough indication of why a Civ likes/doesn't like you (I understand this was missing from the original release) I also see no reason to show you how much weighting each is given on the scale.

And when diplomacy does work well in Civ V (and it can), I find it works very well and can be much more engaging. Diplomacy has always been simplistic in Civ games; Civ IV actually improved the model somewhat, but for the most part it's always been just a slightly more detailed version of Civ V's city-state system - you give them presents or do what they ask, and they like you. It's probably not a coincidence that the city-states use an influence system very reminiscent of Civ IV's famous "sliding scale" (which, while hidden in older games, worked in basically the same way).

But in a game which is fundamentally designed as a single-player experience, the ability of the AI to implement the system is a make-or-break feature. People have suggested that Civ V is perhaps designed more for multiplayer, but I doubt that's true - it even introduces two diplomatic features (declarations of friendship and denunciations) whose only game function is to influence the AI's calculation of its relationships with other civs, and which serve no purpose in multiplayer games. But that suggestion stems from the recognition that there is a far more complex and engaging system hidden within Civ V than you'd realise from just playing against the AI.
 
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