Zulu Problem (Not quite what you think)

Hi all.
I've been playing Brave New World the past few days as has one of my friends. At a couple of points he elected to try out the Zulu (if it matters, Huge, Continents, Prince).

What we both have come to a consensus on is the Zulu's Ikanda promotions are simply too good, and in some ways, stupidly so. When the Ikanda's effects were only vaguely known, we both assumed, based on Shaka's history, that the Ikanda would either randomly assign (or allow you to choose) one of a handful of unique promotions which you could then implement strategically, again, just like the real Shaka, with certain units filling certain roles. For us, this made the Zulu an exciting thought.

The unfortunate reality is that when spawned from a City containing an Ikanda, Zulu melee units, in the hands of a player at least, soon become a massive death machine. Of course the Zulus are massive warmongers but consider this and compare it to other warmongers. For those who don't know, the Ikanda promotions are:

Buffalo Chest (+10% strength Combat Strength when fighting in OPEN Terrain. (NO Hills, Forest or Jungle). Flank attack bonus increased by 25%. +10% Defense against all Ranged Attacks.)

Buffalo Horns (+1 Movement. Flank attack bonus increased by 25%. +10% Defense against all Ranged Attacks.)

Buffalo Loins (+10% strength Combat Strength. Flank attack bonus increased by 25%. +10% Defense against all Ranged Attacks.)

The way it works now, if I recall correctly, is once spawning from an Ikanda, a Unit may select the first one and can receive the second two as upgrades. Again, for my friend and I, it's simply not as fun as we thought. These promotions aren't terribly diverse as it is and there's no strategy. Just use your massive kill machines to overpower everyone for a good, solid while. It is also worth noting that, while we're not sure about muskets or actual gunpowder units, we've seen Impi upgrade to Lancers and retain the promotions.

TL;DR - The Zulu's Ikanda is VERY powerful, to the point where they're just not interesting to play as. My friend and I hoped that it would allow the selection of one of several unique promotions to be applied in strategic ways, but instead they turn melee units into raging death, in a way that lasts long enough to certainly be called overpowered in the hands of a player.

Anyone else agree? Disagree? Can anyone provide further info on how far the Ikanda promotions carry over? we don't won't to be downers and love the expansion overall, but we were really hoping for something more in the Zulu.

EDIT: Okay, since this seems to be devolving into a discussion JUST about whether the Zulu are OP, let me try this: I think the Zulu would be more interesting to play as if you were allowed to choose from one of a list of more specialized promotions than what the Ikanda offers. In my opinion, that'd make them more fun for militaristic players. Do you agree or not an why?

Interesting. The Civilopedia says they upgrade to Riflemen.

Wait... they can get all 3 of these promotions on a single unit? +75% flanking bonus alone is ridiculous and +1 movement on top of that... and 1/3 dmg from ranged attacks and 20% more CS? What the...? You're kidding me right? Who needs GDRs when you can have (Ikanda)-Impi?

Eagle Pursuit said:

Interesting. The Civilopedia says they upgrade to Riflemen.

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They do. Also, to clarify you get buffalo horns for free on any footsoldier (no ranged are mounted), after which you may select either the basic promotions, or buffalo chest, after which you can pick loins.

Just be happy the Spear Throw does not carry over on upgraded Impi to Riflemen.

More or less powerful than Keshiks?

Like the Mongols, the Zulu essentially get a bonus that's only effective for a small period of time. Their upgrades to carry over, unlike Keshik bonuses, so that's interesting. The +25% exp is probably less powerful in the later game than having Khans though.

So, on paper, they look like a slightly earlier era-Mongols. Are they actually more powerful than that? I would have thought they would be less powerful because Keshiks are ranged units, which can always more better abused by human players.

On Pangea maps, it's not terribly hard to destroy the world with Keshiks on Deity... so overpowered? Maybe. But hardly breaking against precedent.

Took one look at Zulu, and they simply scream OP. Considering you can field twice as many melee/early game units as a similar civ for the same cost, and you get free upgrades on top of that. Yikes.

Admittedly, haven't had the "Pleasure" of playing as or against them, but once I do, I know i'll be switching over to military mode.

Whoa, whoa, whoa... what?

These guys upgrade to Riflemen? My God. I've never seen a unique unit diverge from its natural upgrade path. Of all the units to do so, Impi eventually turn into super-powered Infantry and not Anti-tanks?

Not to knock the testers, but did anyone actually check some of the new civs for balance? Compared to G&K and especially Vanilla civs, some of these BNW civs are obscenely powerful. I'm not holding out any hope, but I'm crossing my fingers that Firaxis might wake up and realize how far behind some of the original civs are compared to the new ones and give us an "overhaul" patch (even a DLC would be fine, I'd pay for it, sucker that I am).

Incidentally, I just proposed a way of sprucing up Germany in light of the Zulu.

P.S. Why in the world do the Impi retain their bonus against mounted units on top of everything else? The Pictish Warrior loses it despite being a Spearman replacement. Seriously, they got a little advantage happy in BNW... not many trade offs.

Zulu units are also fun because ALL their Melee has 3 movment with the promotion. Once they get upgraded to musketmen, some of the power is nerf but, they still get 3 move, which is very powerful on melee units. It turns Melee into a much stronger power.

They do seem pretty good, but is it more OP than camel archers or keshiks? Remember that melee units are terrible against cities and are very vulnerable to ranged units/naval units, so I think it's okay that the Zulu get a significant bonus to them.

To clarify again, though I certainly think that they are probably Overpowered, my main issues are:

1- The extent to which the Ikanda promotions are carried over and even initially applied, which is more flexible than many other military bonuses, which has gotten good attention, but also;

2- For those who play as them, I'd argue they're overpowered in a boring way. We have Huns and Mongols and such with an era of prime conquest. With Zulu my friend and I were hoping that there would be a very good way to actually create Impis to fulfill different functions in combat. Maybe some can move faster, some get a flanking bonus, not just the bland "all melee units are monsters now."

adwcta said:

More or less powerful than Keshiks?

Like the Mongols, the Zulu essentially get a bonus that's only effective for a small period of time. Their upgrades to carry over, unlike Keshik bonuses, so that's interesting. The +25% exp is probably less powerful in the later game than having Khans though.

So, on paper, they look like a slightly earlier era-Mongols. Are they actually more powerful than that? I would have thought they would be less powerful because Keshiks are ranged units, which can always more better abused by human players.

On Pangea maps, it's not terribly hard to destroy the world with Keshiks on Deity... so overpowered? Maybe. But hardly breaking against precedent.

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The main thing with Mongolia is going through the 100 turns to get to Keshiks, then watching them go obsolete as Artillery hits the field. So it's kind of how Mongolia's actual story was. A limited period of overpowering supremacy that quickly fades into history.

I was glad when the Huns came out, because they unleashed the conquest train much earlier. These kinds of OP QQ threads came out concerning Battering Rams. And still, I have better games with Atilla than Ghengis on Deity. It's only that their period of dominance fades as well, so the pressure is on to gain enough benefit from the early conquest.

With the Zulu, you have an overwhelmingly superior military at every tech level. Not just these little perks like extra hammers, or fast Great Generals. No, 3 movement Melee for the rest of the game. You shouldn't ever lose in the open field as Zulu. And if players can't translate victories in the open field into city conquest, it's because they don't know how to use seige equipment or don't want to build units. Camel Archers and Keshiks for no-brainer city caps in SP, but Zulu will be giving rolling cities much faster, with much fewer ways for an enemy to respond, and for the entire game.

Polish Redneck said:

To clarify again, though I certainly think that they are probably Overpowered, my main issues are:

1- The extent to which the Ikanda promotions are carried over and even initially applied, which is more flexible than many other military bonuses, which has gotten good attention, but also;

2- For those who play as them, I'd argue they're overpowered in a boring way. We have Huns and Mongols and such with an era of prime conquest. With Zulu my friend and I were hoping that there would be a very good way to actually create Impis to fulfill different functions in combat. Maybe some can move faster, some get a flanking bonus, not just the bland "all melee units are monsters now."

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The civ that you and your friend are looking for is Indonesia. Their UU has random promotions like you are looking for. Most are good. Some are bad. It's like getting 6 different UUs.

I certainly thought of Indonesia's Kris Swordsman, but I'd argue it's still a different thing we wanted. Shaka had units trained to carry out certain tasks, such as flanking, pursuit, etc., and I think the Ikanda should open that option more to the player. The Zulu should be the Civ for those looking to carry out about as intricate of a military strategy in civilization 5 as possible. We want the Ikanda to be all good and allow player control, and certainly the option to just build a massive death army is going to always be open, but we hoped that the Zulu would have an advantage to create specified groups of warriors.

Polish Redneck said:

2- For those who play as them, I'd argue they're overpowered in a boring way. We have Huns and Mongols and such with an era of prime conquest. With Zulu my friend and I were hoping that there would be a very good way to actually create Impis to fulfill different functions in combat. Maybe some can move faster, some get a flanking bonus, not just the bland "all melee units are monsters now."

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I think your main complaint then is that you had higher expectations for the Zulu than Fraxis did... it does seem to be a very easy missed design opportunity though for the Zulu. But I think they might have wanted the Zulu to have super-soldiers, instead of a diverse set of more limited soldiers.

I mean, right now you're just using your superior movement speed to position yourself into good flanking positions to attack (as opposed to normally, where they would just hold position to exert zone of control for your archers). That's the "strategy". Like Keshik hit and run. It's not terribly deep, but Civ V combat is not terribly deep in general, so I guess that fits.

The Zulu are OP, and its the stacking promotions. It needs to be that the Ikanda can only grant 1 of the promotions but they can get all three which makes the Impi's age of conquest the Medieval & the Renaissance because they are better than Musketmen and Musketeers.

With the Impi, there is no strategy. Period. Your entire army is an unstoppable death machine. Mongolia at least had hit & run strategies. Zulu get to build the biggest army as well as the best one with overall combat strength.

If the Impi get an ancient ruin that upgrades them, they become a Lancer.

The promotions should also disappear once upgraded.

Kind of makes sense with Zulu, no?

They are Civ's stereotypical war civ. They are only in the game by merit of tradition.

I like that they are just an all-out, non-stop warmonger

With 43 civs, they won't always spawn next to you, but when they do it's a nice change of pace, though often potentially crippling

seancolorado said:

Kind of makes sense with Zulu, no?

They are Civ's stereotypical war civ. They are only in the game by merit of tradition.

I like that they are just an all-out, non-stop warmonger

With 43 civs, they won't always spawn next to you, but when they do it's a nice change of pace, though often potentially crippling

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Not really, a kingdom that encompassed less than 30,000 sq. km. and won 1 battle against an incompetent commander who happened to have guns is now the best military civ in the game. Even better than the Mongolian Empire who's military conquests have never been surpassed in human history

Tsar NicholasII said:

Not really, a kingdom that encompassed less than 30,000 sq. km. and won 1 battle against an incompetent commander who happened to have guns is now the best military civ in the game. Even better than the Mongolian Empire who's military conquests have never been surpassed in human history

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Which is why I said this:

They are Civ's stereotypical war civ. They are only in the game by merit of tradition.

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With an extra emphasis on 'tradition' as the reason why they are the way they are in Civ [See: Gandhi, nukes]