Way Around Warmonger

I think I found a way to start wars and NOT suffer a mass diplo hit:

Defensive Pact.

Just did two wars, one against Aztecs who attacked Morocco who had a pact with me. I liberated Rabat when Montezuma gifted it back.Second, declared a pact with Korea, paid Siam to attack Jorea, took Sri Latha and no diplo hits around.

Gonna test more, but that would be extremely helpful for those who rely more on diplomacy tied with conquest.

Also, Mongols rock! Love their UA + Keshiks.

Another thing you can do is war before other civs find you. Works on continents and any island map, obviously no good for Pangaea.

MarshalN said:

Another thing you can do is war before other civs find you. Works on continents and any island map, obviously no good for Pangaea.

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[Big goofy smile]

What, me warmonger?? Noooooo... I been all alone here on this continent! You're the first civ I met. Honest!

MarshalN said:

Another thing you can do is war before other civs find you. Works on continents and any island map, obviously no good for Pangaea.

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This didn't work in my game. I took out Morocco very early on my continent, under 100 turns. I suffered warmonger penalties with every civ I met later on until the end of the game.

There were other civs that declared war on ME but I never took any of their cities or declared war on them so I don't see how that could have been the cause of the penalty.

Warmonger really pisses me off. I've had every civ in the game ask me to attack a civ, and when I agreed to, they still called me a warmonger.

What's worse is that in a recent game Shaka declared war on me early. I took his capital and he still wouldn't accept a peace treaty. So I took his second city. He finally offered peace and I took it. Everyone thinks I'm a warmonger and *HE ATTACKED ME*. WTF?

Peace deals are also BS in general. If you refuse a peace deal it dings you as a warmonger worse than if you don't. But the AI frequently offers totally unfair peace deals. I'm sorry, there's no way I'm taking a peace treaty offer with nothing extra attached if I'm one turn away from taking your capitol. At the very least offer me some gold/turn!!

I think warmonger is completely broken. If you attack someone efficiently enough to take their city before they can offer a peace deal, you suffer less of a diplomacy hit than if you don't.

I could go on at length about all the different ways diplomacy is broken though. For example, an AI that was my friend denounced me, so I denounced him back. For the rest of the game I had diplo hits for "Denouncing a friend".... um hello??

Similarly, if you declare war in response to someone spying on you (there's even an option suggesting you do it!!) it's a diplo hit.

Etc, etc, etc. Broken broken broken. :-(

And it's random as hell. I've had AIs stay my friends for the entire game until I was close to winning and *THEN* they start denouncing me and saying I'm a warmonger?? Based on a war from 2000 BC? And it didn't show up in the diplo hints until I was close to a cultural victory? GRRRR.

The warmonger penalty is exaggerated, imo. Of course if an AI is openly hostile and plotting against you, naturally they would call their enemy, you, a warmonger. Even if those neutral or guarded civs have the warmonger modifier, you can have a lot of good modifiers with them to balance them out.

However, if you have wiped 2 Civs or 2 city states. Forget about it, the whole world will hate you, and rightfully so.

Still a newbie here, so my opinion probably hasn't got much weight, but what bothers me is the fact it is sometimes (often?) confusing.

Example, in my current game I'm dominating things slowly. Have been building an army, been the driving force on the continent to drive a bully (ottomans) into the ground. Other civs on my continent happily joined me, cheered for me etc.

After taking down the ottomans I'm stuck with a grand army, and I noticed the chinese, who have been super sneaky building things and researching like madmen.

And all of a sudden, every other civ in the world denounces me, one after the other.

I didn't start a war with anyone else, I even liberated some cities. But now all of a sudden I'm not to be trusted?

Is it because of my big army? Because of my big number of cities? Because I'm slowly winning the game? It doesn't make sense in a logical way. It's like there an excel sheet of hidden numbers working in the game, and when numbers flip the wrong way, the AI does things like this. It's just weird (for me).

Gruber said:

Still a newbie here, so my opinion probably hasn't got much weight, but what bothers me is the fact it is sometimes (often?) confusing.

Example, in my current game I'm dominating things slowly. Have been building an army, been the driving force on the continent to drive a bully (ottomans) into the ground. Other civs on my continent happily joined me, cheered for me etc.

After taking down the ottomans I'm stuck with a grand army, and I noticed the chinese, who have been super sneaky building things and researching like madmen.

And all of a sudden, every other civ in the world denounces me, one after the other.

I didn't start a war with anyone else, I even liberated some cities. But now all of a sudden I'm not to be trusted?

Is it because of my big army? Because of my big number of cities? Because I'm slowly winning the game? It doesn't make sense in a logical way. It's like there an excel sheet of hidden numbers working in the game, and when numbers flip the wrong way, the AI does things like this. It's just weird (for me).

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Did you wipe the Ottomans out totally?
As other leaders dont like Genocide normally (unless they do it lol)

odin26 said:

Did you wipe the Ottomans out totally?
As other leaders dont like Genocide normally (unless they do it lol)

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Ahh, yes I did.

But three other civilizations asked me to join their crusade against the evil Ottomans, I just took it to the next level .

So I better crush his armies and cities and let him suffer a bit? Or let someone else claim the city after crushing it?

Gruber said:

Ahh, yes I did.

But three other civilizations asked me to join their crusade against the evil Ottomans, I just took it to the next level .

So I better crush his armies and cities and let him suffer a bit? Or let someone else claim the city after crushing it?

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Just leave the Ottomans with one city, preferably their worst one. That way, you are not hated for wiping out a Civ, and as a bonus you can still send a caravan/cargo ship to collect trade to that city. Unless of course, another Civ captures that last city.

Generally, reducing the AI to one bad city, effectively makes them useless and harmless for the rest of the game.

Theruss said:

Just leave the Ottomans with one city, preferably their worst one. That way, you are not hated for wiping out a Civ, and as a bonus you can still send a caravan/cargo ship to collect trade to that city. Unless of course, another Civ captures that last city.

Generally, reducing the AI to one bad city, effectively makes them useless and harmless for the rest of the game.

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Thanks Will try to remember that next time.

The warmonger penalty is clearly designed to keep as many civs in the game as long as possible.

Most of the BNW mechanics seem to be designed for that purpose.

Happiness, science penalties for growth, etc.

Theruss said:

Just leave the Ottomans with one city, preferably their worst one. That way, you are not hated for wiping out a Civ, and as a bonus you can still send a caravan/cargo ship to collect trade to that city. Unless of course, another Civ captures that last city.

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I always have a hard time doing that.

Tom Hagen: "Is it worth it? I mean, you've won. Do you wanna wipe everybody out?"

Michael Corleone: "I don't feel I have to wipe everybody out, Tom... just my enemies, that's all."