Dune University 3

The culture hit is just too big IMO
Really? I normally find that -25% culture isn't that big a deal, especially with the various +50% cathedral buildings out there.
Once you're out 3-4 rings, the marginal value of a bit more culture isn't really that big.

I think if we make it too low, we end up making it way more valuable than the +culture or +espionage civics.

I'd gladly cut back to -20%.
Kanly (+4xp, -10% milprod) might also be a bit too strong.

I wouldn't say military mentats are a no-brainer. You get +3 XP (or 1 more XP than a settled Great Burseg) - not unbalanced or game breaking.
But the problem is, they stack. It is very easy to stack them up with great bursegs, barracks, military academy, the +100% milprod national wonder, in a couple of cities and be generating super-duper-elites.

I am sure other players could highlight the effective use of the other mentats using their own unique playstyle.
Like you, I tend to only ever use the military one, and have a handful of military cities.
It's possible that the problem is not so much that the military one is too strong, but that the others are too weak?

From a flavor standpoint, the design works well (in other words the GP received makes sense considering the technology that is being researched)
I'm not sure I see a flavor gain. Sure, you get a trade GP from being first to an economic tech, and a spy GP from being first to an espionage tech, etc. but I don't see anything particularly flavorful about these techs that mean they should give you a great person.

However, for discussion, which GP do you think should be removed?
Arguably, all of them. I'm not sure I see any need for them. I don't think that they are on underpowered techs, in general, and they can tend to just reward the tech frontrunner, as shown in your play. There are lots of other things that already reward tech frontrunners (passive yield boosts, first to access wonders, etc) so I'm not sure this is necessary. And I'm not sure that the specific techs would be underpowered without them.
It might be nice to refocus great people more on being generating through specialists.
 
Really? I normally find that -25% culture isn't that big a deal, especially with the various +50% cathedral buildings out there.
Once you're out 3-4 rings, the marginal value of a bit more culture isn't really that big.
Timing is everything. Culture is important when you found cities (that won't have culture buildings for quite some time - unless you have built Stone of Prophecy or are Political) AND when you capture cities (which again won't have any culture buildings). So this is very problematic, especially if warring - good luck trying to stay out of revolt and making captured cities useful anytime soon. Imperialism is decent for a stable and mature empire but detrimental to a growing one (through REX or war). Pretty much the reason why I have never adopted it. Running a high culture slider is not the way to get a good score - running a high science slider is. However, I am not saying that anything needs changing, just explaining my reasoning of why I personally don't find Imperialism useful (at all :lol:).
Kanly (+4xp, -10% milprod) might also be a bit too strong.
The AIs don't value Kanly whatsoever. In the recent versions (1.9.x) no AI in any of my games has ever adopted Kanly. I think Kanly is not too strong. I do think the AIs should use Kanly. The fact that they don't is the main problem IMO.
But the problem is, they stack. It is very easy to stack them up with great bursegs, barracks, military academy, the +100% milprod national wonder, in a couple of cities and be generating super-duper-elites.
The other mentat bonuses stack as well. I still don't see the problem.
Like you, I tend to only ever use the military one, and have a handful of military cities.
It's possible that the problem is not so much that the military one is too strong, but that the others are too weak?
I would agree with you here. I would buff the other mentat abilities. It still wouldn't change my particular playstyle though.
arguably, all of them. I'm not sure I see any need for them. I don't think that they are on underpowered techs, in general, and they can tend to just reward the tech frontrunner, as shown in your play. There are lots of other things that already reward tech frontrunners (passive yield boosts, first to access wonders, etc) so I'm not sure this is necessary. And I'm not sure that the specific techs would be underpowered without them.
It might be nice to refocus great people more on being generating through specialists.
All I can say is I like the current system. However, if you want to change it I am not opposed. I just don't think there is a pressing need to change it.
 
Culture is important when you found cities (that won't have culture buildings for quite some time - unless you have built Stone of Prophecy or are Political)
By the time you have Imperialism, you probably will have founded most of your cities, and even then, most of the time the limit on culture is the time it takes to build your first culture building. The time it then takes for that culture to expand to the second ring is small, and a 25% reduction in culture output doesn't have much effect.

Also, by the time you have Imperialism civic, you tend to have a lot more than just stone of prophecy or monuments.

AND when you capture cities (which again won't have any culture buildings)
You can expand the first ring pretty fast by just building culture (ie build culture directly hammers -> culture). Usually pops in a couple of turns.

So this is very problematic, especially if warring - good luck trying to stay out of revolt and making captured cities useful anytime soon
I don't find that -25% culture has any significant impact on warring.

Imperialism is decent for a stable and mature empire
Right, that is what it is designed for. The fast that it isn't great in the early game doesn't mean it is weak. Not every civic should be good in every situation.

Running a high culture slider is not the way to get a good score
I never use the culture slider. I never see why you would need to. Culture is more useful in Dune Wars, but due to the core Civ4 mechanics, getting culture in every city is hardly ever valuable.

The AIs don't value Kanly whatsoever
Yeah, the AI is pretty afraid of military production penalties. I'm not sure what we can do here. It is the favorite civic for Duke Leto, but otherwise might not be adopted much.

The other mentat bonuses stack as well. I still don't see the problem.
The other ones are quite different. First of all, you may well only ever product military units in ~2-3 cities, so concentrated military bonuses are more valuable than concentrated other bonuses, since every city will have some gold/science/hammers. Excess happy/health is useless, so those don't tend to concentrate much either.
Also, the marginal value of % yield boosters is decreasing; if you already have +100% bonus, then an extra +20% only increases the total by 10%.
There is some decline in marginal value for extra experience (because each new level takes more experience) but nothing like as strong.

So, basically, free XP is mostly more valuable as something to specialize in than most of the other benefits.

I would buff the other mentat abilities.
This would tend to be my inclination too.

All I can say is I like the current system.
Yeah, it's not a huge deal, it just seems like an unnecessary boost to frontrunners. I don't feel that strongly about it.

None of the issues mentioned here are a big deal.
 
None of the issues mentioned here are a big deal
Still, the discussion has merit regardless. It is always good to hear a differing perspective from your own. Only way to make the mod better. :)
 
We continue on. Turnset 3; part 3 (~turn 213) :
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I start off by begging 1 gold from Leto II and ground water (hahahaha) from Margot to insure no unwelcome interference in the war. The plan is to cap Irulan as quickly as possible an then cap Master Scytale once Princess Irulan has joined the Fremen empire.
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Easy pickings. This is the result of attacking while House Corrino was already at war with the Bene Tleilax (so her stack was busy elsewhere). I recruit defenders so my attack force can continue on once healed. A missile trooper is recruited to help defend Nalour as well.
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The capture of Old is enough for Princess Irulan to capitulate. The war is over in only 4 turns. The first order of business is to open borders. Next I trade Ablative Shields to her for Desert Industry and her world map (which gets her back to cautious - not really important but I like my vassals to be happy). The following turn I trade her Solaris Economy + Sandworms for Arrakis Tamed + world map. Princess Irulan is now pleased to be part of the Fremen empire. :)
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A worthless trade. What is important though is that I am one turn away from Vendettas. Ix demanded some backward tech (can't remember what it was) so we have a peace treaty now.
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I make the switch to Kanly and Arrakis Paradise. I have enough power to start the terraforming process. Master Scytale won't be able to avoid capitulation (I am just too strong), Baron Harkonnen will be eliminated soon enough and Margot Fenring likes me. Leto II is already running Arrakis Paradise so he won't be a problem. That leaves Ix but he is backwards in tech compared to me and won't have enough power to challenge a Fremen/Corrino/Bene Teilax empire (especially once I start gifting them key military techs). Aquabores will be a priority once Arrakis Transformation is done researching. In the next part, the beat down of Master Scytale begins. :lol:
 
turnset 3; part 4 (~turn 224) :
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The war with Master Scytale begins. I also declare on Baron Harkonnen as well - I want his last polar city.
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Predictable results. No harm in using Guild transport to reinforce (probably didn't need to but whatever).
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The tech situation. The AIs are hopelessly behind.
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Master Scytale joins the Fremen empire - this war took only 3 turns. The following turn I trade Leto II Culture of Dune for Combat Ornithopters + world map + 130 gold. I did this mainly to soak up his extra gold since as the Fremen, CO is totally worthless. It does allow me to trade Margot Fenring Ablative Shields + Landsraad + 25 gold for Air Power on turn 219 though.
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Frigate Transportation is finished and I set my tech path for the techs I need to win. Fishspeakers + Fedaykin will pretty much seal the deal.
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The Great Techman is used to complete Guild Research Facility this turn. Not too shabby of a capital (or GP farm for that matter). Arrakis Transformation is traded away to Princess Irulan for Rocketry and 90 gold. I am getting low on money so I trade Harsh Conditioning to Leto II for his world map and 420 gold. Hardened bladesman are no threat to me so this is a really good trade (and will get me that much closer to fishspeakers).
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It is not too important that I get voted Landsraad chairman but it does allow me to control the resolutions that are brought up. Needless to say, the diplomatic victory resolution will never see the light of day. :lol: Margot Fenring asks me for Academies and I am happy to give it to her. Might as well keep her happy while I can.
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No tech brokering = no problem. The AIs would benefit from a little brokering at this point. I wouldn't be able to freely trade away key techs if they could.
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Baron Harkonnen RIP.

One turnset left to go. The save View attachment du3t227.CivBeyondSwordSave for those interested.
 
turnset 4; part 1 (turn ~249) :
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I am going to start the war against Leto II soon. My forces will take his polar city first and then move on to his main cities. I will be building fish speakers to garrison captured cities (via space port) so I start another golden age.
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Even though I am going for a terraforming victory, improving spice tiles is still necessary. Passing up free commerce is poor play. Sadly, I have a large amount of unimproved spice tiles. Early game, I was able to keep up but now the empire is just too large (and my worker count too low) so I am way behind. I have improved most of my high water yield tiles though. A few turns ago I traded Personal Shields to Margot Fenring for Mechanization and 25 gold. I will research Mobile Armor next.
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The final war begins. I also trade Princess Irulan Landsraad + Water of Life for Holtzmann Generators + world map + 50 gold this turn because the tech race no longer matters (except each tech I have will add to my score).
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Stacks of doom - I love stacks of doom (especially the Fedaykin kind). :king:
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Istiggah Ridge is defended pretty well but can't hold out against level 6+ troops. Princess Irulan wants Mobile Armor so I give it to her. Who knows, maybe she might build some light scorpions for the war effort. The Fremen OC can't build them.
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By now, most of my core cities have (or are finishing) Reservoir of Liet. The cities I captured from Princess Irulan and Master Scytale are a little behind but are prioritizing their construction (followed by economic infrastructure). No surprise that House Ix hates me - I *AM* destroying the spice after all. :p
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I pop another Great Burseg in capturing Arrakeen. OMG! Look at all of those settled GP. Capturing The Doctrine of Istislah is nice (I have a bunch of settled Great Prophets). I chose to attack Leto II last because I knew he would build the terraforming buildings in his core cities. This will make my victory happen much quicker (once the terraformed plots are inside my culture). Thanks for your hard work Leto. This is also the reason I raised the culture slider a bit.
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After Fedaykin do the heavy lifting, GT2 fish speaker FTW. Master Scytale needs Vendettas (he needed that a looong time ago :lol:) and I give it to him. Hopefully, he can make himself useful. The war continues on in the next part.
 
You can expand the first ring pretty fast by just building culture (ie build culture directly hammers -> culture). Usually pops in a couple of turns.

Just to add my 2 cents worth, in my current game as the Political Ix leader, I was running the civic that gave me 1 free specialist in every city.

So I would rush out settlers and defenders on Transports out to spice rich islands. Found the city. Run a Noble specialist and build Culture. The ring pops in 2 turns :lol:

I had a bunch of spice workers in position. Each can build a harvester in 2 turns. So basically within 4 turns I could max out the BFC of each new cities spice production. Approx 7-10 turns later the 3rd ring can be popped by gold rushing a Theatre and then building Culture again.

So huge amounts of spice could be gathered in a short time. Great boost to GNP. :)
 
@ Maglock : Nice! I never thought to do that. OC, I am mainly focusing on research rate, but that is really cool man. :goodjob: I like your 2 cents (very good tip). :)
 
The conclusion (finally :lol:) :
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Another EZPZ city capture. Oh look, Master Scytale captured himself a city. It is so nice when a vassal makes themselves useful.
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I made a two pronged attack this turn which allowed me to capture Cave of Birds (+25% defense in all cities) - don't need it at this point and it surely did Leto II a world of good. :rolleyes: I assume he was trying to reinforce Arsunt Pass (I hope). Doh!
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Stick a fork in him - he's had enough. Hey Leto, all the cool civs are joining the Fremen empire. LOL.
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Victory is almost at hand. I don't have the most troops but I do have the BEST (extremely battle hardened) troops. Ix dare not attack me (which would be suicide). I have such a huge tech lead that I could easily bribe Margot into any war with him and oc he would also have to face my vassals as well.
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Ha. I could have won diplo many turns ago but that would have not been as fun. Note to self - raise science slider to 90% to pad score. I should not have 5K gold collecting dust.
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Stats for the game.
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Just because I love this picture of Paul Muad'dib. Score is not too shabby either.
If anybody wants to check out the final save View attachment du3-endofgame.CivBeyondSwordSave Hopefully, DU3 has been entertaining. It surely was a very fun game. :) Comments and criticisms welcome as always.
 
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