If you start asking something in exchange when they asked to renew the deal, the buff goes away completely.
The only way to keep it is to accept the original deal in which you get nothing in return.
How to handle your Neighbor (Deity)?
- Thread starter Fluphen Azine
- Start date
If you start asking something in exchange when they asked to renew the deal, the buff goes away completely.
The only way to keep it is to accept the original deal in which you get nothing in return.
If you look at any website for the strength of diplo modifiers, I can tell you EASILY that warmonger penalty can be stronger than 4-5 buffs combined depending on your warmongering.
Other than that I can think of other red buffs:
You made a friendship with their enemy
You denounced one of their friends
You DoW'd or denounced a friend
You told a civ you weren't going to attack them (doesn't have to be Germany) but did it anyway (this one is rather extreme)
You broke a promise (spying, purchasing land, settling)
They covet lands (most likely cause of citadel bomb)
It won't matter if you have 5 green buffs (in reality though I think it's only 3 that are bright green, as the religion buff goes away and if the trade deal is not heavily favorable for them it will also be faint green; voting for their proposal only lasts 15 turns however and the strength of the buff is rather weak... voting them to be host gives you a positive diplo around half the strength of a DoF) if you have a similar number of red debuffs
anyway take a screenshot... I can hardly believe that they'd do that with just 5 green buffs and no red buffs. (the AI is coded to view each player as either enemy, competitor, friend or ally; I'm sure for example, if you have DoF, mutual friends, WC host, landmark, and perhaps a liberation buff, they will view you as ally, hence 0% war regardless of army size assuming an average AI's flavor, unless bribed of course)
budweiser
King of the Beers
You do get something, you get to develop your empire in peace.
yep, and that is worth 20 nukes, subs and rocket artillery in some situations.
But I was just saying if you put anything on their side of the table when they renew the deal the "they asked for help and you provided" goes away. That buff is exactly as strong as the actual DoF itself, so you've just "doubled" your friendship, per se. They won't mind as much even if you displease them in the WC.
budweiser
King of the Beers
Wow. That's pretty strong. Now I want more AI asking me for help. Typically it does not happen very much.
I guess step one is a DoF, which I think a free Horse early will get me. Then I imagine they need a reason to ask me for help. Not sure what qualifies here.
Neediness flavor... check your civ table... India is notorious for being needy.
Shark Diver
King
I can assure you that no AI has ever answered my own "neediness", so I'm always reluctant to give away anything (but I guess it's just another form of trade the way you describe it). I'm wondering if the AI ever give "need" trades to each other?
You have to be careful bribing your evil neighbour to fight other Civs. If they get an early lead on conquest and expansion you will have a runaway monster to contend with later on and that can be far worse than having to fight that neighbour early.
Some AIs like Shaka may have a high loyalty count but they still play a competitive game so they are likely to see you as a threat sooner or later - never trust them.
I think if you have a warmonger neighbour you have to prioritise army over everything else and tech construction asap. Settle your cities on hills surrounded by rough terrain as that can block the Line-of-Sight from siege units. Scouts make excellent early game meat shields to stand in front of your composite bowmen.
I think as some say it can be best to DoW that neighbour early and harass them so as to prevent them from building up 20 units to hit you at once. Scouts and horsemen are good to send in from behind to steal workers and pillage.
Some AIs like Shaka may have a high loyalty count but they still play a competitive game so they are likely to see you as a threat sooner or later - never trust them.
I think if you have a warmonger neighbour you have to prioritise army over everything else and tech construction asap. Settle your cities on hills surrounded by rough terrain as that can block the Line-of-Sight from siege units. Scouts make excellent early game meat shields to stand in front of your composite bowmen.
I think as some say it can be best to DoW that neighbour early and harass them so as to prevent them from building up 20 units to hit you at once. Scouts and horsemen are good to send in from behind to steal workers and pillage.
stormtrooper412
Peacemongering Turtlesaur
I asked for Iron from Nobunaga once and he was like, sure, have it because we're cool
You know if you selling him iron isn't necessarily bad. If he uses your iron and loses it by dowing you, then his samurais become useless. Because now he has more iron units than iron. If he doesnt end up building more units with your iron then no harm done. Also note this doesn't synergize with the idea of buying his iron. If your gonna buy his dont sell him any because your basically just replacing it and he'll get the ones you bought back if theres a dow.
JeSuisNapoleon
Prince
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Thats some thin ice your walking on!
All he needs to do is get a source of iron *somewhere else* and you become a target. Dowing you now saves whatever GPT he was buying the iron with. Iron is not exactly rare in most games.
I used to do this same thing, but about half of the time they will get iron somewhere else and come knocking on my city gates with an army a sammies.
There is a light green buff for trading recently, but I am pretty sure it can be any trade. That is, gifting one horse is as good as gifting five. Likewise, selling at market price gets the same buff as gifting. If I am wrong about this, I please say so!
That buff is strong, but it does seem to go away before too long. Are you saying you keep the bright green buff so long as you keep renewing the deal? I need to try that!
Also, the tip about putting scouts/civilians on your side of the river banks is good one! I have noticed that the AI will not actually DoW until close, but it never occurred to me to try blocking with weak units.
That buff is strong, but it does seem to go away before too long. Are you saying you keep the bright green buff so long as you keep renewing the deal? I need to try that!
Also, the tip about putting scouts/civilians on your side of the river banks is good one! I have noticed that the AI will not actually DoW until close, but it never occurred to me to try blocking with weak units.
That's why I said "we've traded recently" and "they asked for help and you provided" are completely different buffs, the latter being much stronger. Just click accept when the deal comes up and the buff should stay.
Lord Yanaek
Emperor
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Selling at market price (7 gpt for a lux) might give you a positive mod if AI is already friendly but when i want to be sure i sell for 4 gpt (5 often works)
Be careful not to rely too much on this. I've seen AI DoW me (and other AIs) from far away, even without troops nearby. Obviously this will occur with joint wars but i've seen single AIs do it and i've seen an AI DoW me as soon as their approaching army met a scout i posted as a sentry somewhere between our lands. At least it might buy you time to get your own units into position but i think it will only prevent a DoW when the AI is in "positioning" mode (trying to get their units in the best position for a quick strike)
I have never not seen the traded recently buff when selling at market price, so I think you are giving away 2-3 gpt for nothing. With a hostile AI and truly spare luxes, I will often sell at 3 gpt (the most they will give me) to get the buff. That said, I have never been able to tell for sure that weak trade made a difference, and often relations never improve.
But based on this thread, I want to watch things a little more closely. For example, I would love to learn that unprompted gifting makes a difference. I have pretty much given up on that. Running trade routes with unfriendly neighbors does seem to help relations, but I am not convinced that (for example) 3+ routes makes any more difference than just one.
consentient
Domination!
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I think that regardless of what we know (the + and - modifiers list), there are other factors at play. I'd like to make a video sometime if I can get it working on this Mac, but in some of my games AIs go from all green buffs and loving me to hating my guts just for CS competition, for example. They truly are psychos of the highest order.
Put it this way: when bribe the AI to DoW his BFF for no reason, he does it gladly for the money. Why should they be any different when you're the victim. Buffs schmuffs.
Put it this way: when bribe the AI to DoW his BFF for no reason, he does it gladly for the money. Why should they be any different when you're the victim. Buffs schmuffs.
Absolutely. This is my experience as well, but I seem to get surprised less often nowadays. It also does not seem quite as bad to me as it was with GnK.
That would be very instructive I think, if you can really catch the relations crash as it unfolds over just a few turns. I don’t find it surprising when it happens, but it is far from predictable in my experince
Do you know of a mod or debug utility that expose these sort of AI behaviors? I would love to know how often an AI bribes another AI into war against the player.
Fluphen Azine
What is Fluphen Azine?
I think my France Immortal game is a prime example of not getting DOWed by the AI. I eventually went to war with Dido when I wanted to but I noticed almost everyone else had invasions in the games they posted. I find it very easy not to get DOWed in the new BNW on any level in most games.
I do not have this happen very often in my games. I have seen it but I think you can keep them from going total green to instant red a very high % of games. One thing I do with the CS's if I think it is going to cause a problem is just stay friends with only a couple of pts of influence needed. Now when I am ready for war or I do not care if Alex is going to denounce me because I can handle a war I ally up all the CS's that I want. Most of the times though if you can swing it and free a worker for them that is a pretty strong modifier. One exploit/tactic is to steal an early worker and when your at war with another Civ you can recapture that worker and send him home for the free modifier. I had the chance in the Sweden Deity Challenge to free Shaka's worker which I am almost certain it would of stopped him from rolling me. I decided to keep the worker and Shaka ended the game for me before turn 100 even though I put him to war with a CS and he was at war with 2 other Civs. However, this type of scenario is rare but it is good to free a worker of the lunatic Civs! (I am also finding that if you can get the AI to kill off a Civ or two and when you are ready for war you go and Liberate those Civs that it is not only an instant DOF forever it seems to make your other DOFs stronger)
Now with the new tactic that kb27787 suggested I find that it is even easier to keep all the Civs with strong green modifiers. If I fear someone does not like me I just give them one of my extra luxes for free. I just recently did that against Dido and even though she had about 9 red modifiers and only 1 green one it seemed that she would not attack as long as I kept giving her 1 free horse, iron, and even a free extra lux like spice!
Usually this green to instant red problem will only happen with very few Civs and all the friendly Civs it will not happen. I play Deity both ways. Sometimes I have no army for over 100 turns and do not even worry about an invasion. I played this style on both the IDS 7 Rome and DCL 17 Germany. The older GK or BNW I found I would have to worry about an early attack but with the new BNW it does not seem to happen very often and I find it very easy to be friends with all the Civs until I decide I do not want to be friends. The only time that this is a problem is when I am warmongering from the get go and everyone is going to hate me eventually but that is not going to matter because the player is going to jump on the AI so early that the AI usually does not stand a chance.
Eventually even with weaker units the human player is going to overtake the AI even if it takes almost 400 turns to complete the game. Yes it does get a little tedious killing unit after unit but that is what Warmongering is all about. If you just rolled the AI and won every game in 140-190 turns it would start to get boring. This is one thing I like about pushing the game into the 300s. You get to play with all the late era toys.
consentient
Domination!
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Are you saying that you intentionally deprive yourself of extra culture, food and happiness by staying friends rather than making allies?
Fluphen Azine
What is Fluphen Azine?
It depends. I think it is pretty obvious that I do not worry about spt or cpt in my games. I try to catch up on Science more so than Culture. I never worry about my Culture and I really never worry about my Tourism! My game play is not for a player who wants to finish the game fast! I am just saying that if you are having a problem with 6 green modifiers going to instant red for making allies you can just stay friends for the time being until you do not care anymore about that Civ. It is not going to be faster or more optimal but it is going to keep these Civs from denouncing you or Dowing you, which might be what you need for 20 turns until you do not care anymore.
So I am just saying that you have options. If you can handle a little less culture or happy or whatever the CS is giving you for allied status instead of friend status than you might consider just staying friends to keep the Civ you are worried about happy with you. It is a trade off. I do not believe that staying allied for 25-50 turns instead of just friends is going to hinder your culture so much that it is going to be game breaking. However if you are not ready for a strong warmongering Civ to invade your lands that could very well be game breaking so my thinking is that it is best not to upset your neighbor until you are ready.
Of course if you think you have no way of stopping this Civ from Dowing you than you have to keep allied with the CS's so you do not lose your chance. As always it is a bit of a gamble on what you want and how you want to play it. However I have played many of peaceful games with hardly any units and never get attacked. I do not find it nearly as fun as all out warmongering but I do find that it makes for a less stressful game at times. If you look back at Deity Challenge 38 before the new DCL... you can see in my game I never hardly had any units at all and I was getting Citadel bombed like crazy against the Shoshone and I had Russia and Alex on my East but I was able to keep all these nuts from attacking me the whole very long game. I think Rome may have attacked me from the South but everyone was attacking him and he had a tough time getting to me so it was pretty much a no show from him. In the Morocco game I only built a couple of units very late since those mountains were a fortress!
Edit: I haven't looked at that game for awhile and I may have deleted all the pictures but I think you can understand my point. I think everyone knows that internal food routes are better than external trade routes to a Civ. However, we all know that a caravan to a Civ that covets your lands will instantly wipe that away. Even though it is harder to get DOFed with the crazy Civs it is not that difficult to get them to be your ally the whole game. Now with the knowledge of free gifts I do not believe I will ever have many problems with these Civs. All that is needed is to give them some free resources, send a trade route, elect them Leader of the WC, free a worker for them, Bribe them to war with other civs, perhaps denounce a Civ that they hate, Purpose WF as always on first WC... etc!
So I am just saying that you have options. If you can handle a little less culture or happy or whatever the CS is giving you for allied status instead of friend status than you might consider just staying friends to keep the Civ you are worried about happy with you. It is a trade off. I do not believe that staying allied for 25-50 turns instead of just friends is going to hinder your culture so much that it is going to be game breaking. However if you are not ready for a strong warmongering Civ to invade your lands that could very well be game breaking so my thinking is that it is best not to upset your neighbor until you are ready.
Of course if you think you have no way of stopping this Civ from Dowing you than you have to keep allied with the CS's so you do not lose your chance. As always it is a bit of a gamble on what you want and how you want to play it. However I have played many of peaceful games with hardly any units and never get attacked. I do not find it nearly as fun as all out warmongering but I do find that it makes for a less stressful game at times. If you look back at Deity Challenge 38 before the new DCL... you can see in my game I never hardly had any units at all and I was getting Citadel bombed like crazy against the Shoshone and I had Russia and Alex on my East but I was able to keep all these nuts from attacking me the whole very long game. I think Rome may have attacked me from the South but everyone was attacking him and he had a tough time getting to me so it was pretty much a no show from him. In the Morocco game I only built a couple of units very late since those mountains were a fortress!
Edit: I haven't looked at that game for awhile and I may have deleted all the pictures but I think you can understand my point. I think everyone knows that internal food routes are better than external trade routes to a Civ. However, we all know that a caravan to a Civ that covets your lands will instantly wipe that away. Even though it is harder to get DOFed with the crazy Civs it is not that difficult to get them to be your ally the whole game. Now with the knowledge of free gifts I do not believe I will ever have many problems with these Civs. All that is needed is to give them some free resources, send a trade route, elect them Leader of the WC, free a worker for them, Bribe them to war with other civs, perhaps denounce a Civ that they hate, Purpose WF as always on first WC... etc!
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