A Guide to Playing “Small” on Deity (feat. Piety)

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I'm sorry, I mean to say, is there a map type (i.e. Small Continents, Archipelago, Pangaea, Tiny Islands, etc.) that this strategy would often do consistently well on? Or does it truly boil down to how the geopolitical situation turns out more than anything?

adwcta said:

But, things keep changing significantly with AI behavior each patch, so it didn't seem worthwhile to write a guide. Now that it seems we're not getting any more major patches for Civ V, I thought I would share my experience playing as the great AI puppetmaster.

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I have not given this strategy a try, but I think I will borrow heavily from it for a retry with the current France DCL as map that kind of forces “small” anyway -- and I have been eager to give Underground Sects a try. I have never won Deity opening Piety, so that would be nice to work through.

This guide is a year old, and there was another major balance patch last fall. So is this guide still valid? The inadvertent science overflow is lessened, but the AIs are more passive, so I think it should be as viable as ever.

Shokatshin said:

What would you guys say is the easiest map for this strategy?

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Shokatshin said:

I'm sorry, I mean to say, is there a map type (i.e. Small Continents, Archipelago, Pangaea, Tiny Islands, etc.) that this strategy would often do consistently well on? Or does it truly boil down to how the geopolitical situation turns out more than anything?

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The strategy has two key elements: faith-oriented dirt, and a neighbor who does not found.

Continents could be very easy or very hard, so if you are looking for easy I would try that first. Reroll if any neighbors are warmongers or found.

In general, the more water the easier it is for the player to stay out of the way of the AIs, so that synergies with this guide. You would be later finding AI that you can convert, but Archipelago and Tiny Islands would just about guarantee good targets, so less luck-based than Continents. The Plus scripts make the CS harder to get to, so I would think that would be a larger-than-usual handicap for this strategy.

beetle said:

I have not given this strategy a try, but I think I will borrow heavily from it for a retry with the current France DCL as map that kind of forces “small” anyway -- and I have been eager to give Underground Sects a try. I have never won Deity opening Piety, so that would be nice to work through.

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Sclb said:

I don't see how this strat can work with aggressive neighbors.

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OP shows it working with a weak spawn next to Zulu. But an aggressive neighbor who founds (and there are more than a few of those sort) is certainly problematic.

This guide just has two criteria, and a neighbor not founding is one of them. That said, I think Inland Sea is good for this strategy even with neighbors on both sides founding. After astronomy, an Inland Sea map (since they are smaller, and most civs will put a city on the coast) pretty much guarantees being able to reach everyone by trade routes.

Underground Sects provides a reasonable means to convert three caps that the OP did not have in his bag of tricks.

beetle said:

The strategy has two key elements: faith-oriented dirt, and a neighbor who does not found.

Continents could be very easy or very hard, so if you are looking for easy I would try that first. Reroll if any neighbors are warmongers or found.

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So let's summarize this 'strategy' - reroll maps until you get faith-oriented dirt, and a non- aggressive neighbor who does not found.
Then stay backward all game and pray to noone annihilate you and abuse science overflow bug and AIs inability to win; and 'win'~300t. Great.

Maybe better learn how to play properly with strategy which work on any map and dirt.

The wall-of-text that is the first page of this thread really intimidated me, but I finally got around to reading it and the many pages of discussion. It really is done well, and the BNW quotes are a hoot!

IronfighterXXX said:

So let's summarize this 'strategy' - reroll maps until you get faith-oriented dirt, and a non- aggressive neighbor who does not found. Then stay backward all game and pray to noone annihilate you and abuse science overflow bug and AIs inability to win; and 'win'~300t.

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Yes, this strat is longer turn time to win, but does not seem to use science overflow bug, and is not really luck based (so no need to pray). The rerolling was my suggestion for someone that is having trouble with the strategy.

Maybe better learn how to play properly with strategy which work on any map and dirt.

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Yes, if you have mastery which works on any map and dirt, and you are not bored, this guide is not for you! From very first sentence in OP:

This is a guide for Non-Deity players looking to break into the difficulty and Deity players who want to try something new.

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I don't feel like I am a stupid person, but I have not been able to replicate the sub t250 SV that several better players seem to think is routine. I have read plenty, I probably don't follow the scripts faithfully enough, but I am not convinced what is currently available are quite detailed enough for me. That is okay, I am enjoying the game.

Running full Piety at Deity is certainly something I have not done successfully, so I look forward to trying it!

IronfighterXXX said:

So let's summarize this 'strategy' - reroll maps until you get faith-oriented dirt, and a non- aggressive neighbor who does not found.
Then stay backward all game and pray to noone annihilate you and abuse science overflow bug and AIs inability to win; and 'win'~300t. Great.

Maybe better learn how to play properly with strategy which work on any map and dirt.

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Exactly. Don't get worked up just because it's a gimmick strat that works.

If it wasn't based on a broken diplomatic victory I'd be more inclined to like the idea :/ Yes there is a science victory section... to scrap your game and barely manage to launch a ship.

If someone truly wants to play Piety on Deity it's possible. Probably not very good to open with it but I'm fairly confident you can manage with Liberty (3) first and then going down Piety. If you don't care about finish time I'd try that instead of this whole "small, play from behind" idea which just relies on a passive AI... and doesn't really need Piety to begin with.

I find the idea that I go full Piety -- and still win at Deity (even if it is a DiploV) -- to be rather remarkable. Other guides I have read about cheesy Deity DiploV have been geared towards exploiting particular UA (i.e., Greece, Sweden, or Venice).

That said, I think DiploV for any civ can be done with 4-city Tradition + Freedom Trade Routes + beeline to Globalization. So easy enough that even I can do it!

Decided to try this strat with Byzantium for a nice little try at Deity (Immortal level player now).

Spawned in a nice little 3/4 circle of mountains and CS, with only my left side as the only flat land (read: COMPLETELY OPEN with nothing blocking the path) around me. Found a civ that is roughly 9 tiles in that direction. By far my closest neighboring CIV. Guess who?

Celts w/ t12 religion founded.

beetle said:

I find the idea that I go full Piety -- and still win at Deity (even if it is a DiploV) -- to be rather remarkable. Other guides I have read about cheesy Deity DiploV have been geared towards exploiting particular UA (i.e., Greece, Sweden, or Venice).

That said, I think DiploV for any civ can be done with 4-city Tradition + Freedom Trade Routes + beeline to Globalization. So easy enough that even I can do it!

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That's why I'm trying a fast DiploV that could be interesting. I don't even think I needed CS trade routes, I just use them for gpt loans and just buy every CS and use the spies to coup the rest. Timing the push for tech correctly is mainly the problem I'm having right now.

Acken said:

If it wasn't based on a broken diplomatic victory I'd be more inclined to like the idea :/ Yes there is a science victory section... to scrap your game and barely manage to launch a ship.

If someone truly wants to play Piety on Deity it's possible. Probably not very good to open with it but I'm fairly confident you can manage with Liberty (3) first and then going down Piety. If you don't care about finish time I'd try that instead of this whole "small, play from behind" idea which just relies on a passive AI... and doesn't really need Piety to begin with.

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Nope, this idea works and doesn't need either a passive AI or even non-competing religions, funnily enough. You should give it a go yourself, maybe?

I usually play on emperor, so followed this for my first deity attempt. I didn't re-roll on opponents, but I did re-roll a few times to get gems/pearls for a decent pantheon choice.

Failed at everything. I did convert a few powerful neighbours to my religion for long enough to get decs of friendship (which was seriously valuable because it persists once you are friends of friends) ... but then couldn't hold them and they went off into other religions. However they still had vestiges of my religion, and with Tithe that paid off nicely. The Ottomans were my true best buddies - shared religion (early on at least), absolutely no red warnings, they didn't covet my pathetic little lands and I traded/gave them every resource I had, even down to my solitary little pearl. I even paid them to declare war on other people to keep them busy (a mistake - they were way too successful and ended up with seriously promoted troops). They spent the entire game both loving me consistently and declaring war continuously - roughly every 50-100 turns with huge battle-hardened armies.

I played as Polynesia on Archipelago, standard map, epic, and got 3 faith huts, which was very useful but probably average given that I swiped pretty much every hut on the globe before the AI had a chance to research optics. I had a mountain so managed to get Machu Picchu since I thought the cash would be handy and luckily mountains were scarce on this map so I got the chance. Astonishingly, I got the Forbidden Palace, which was a real surprise and I only tried for it expecting to fail. My island was very narrow so I got a very decent little Moai grouping that ramped my culture nicely over time. I ran through piety then patronage, just taking tradition initially to get the borders grown, and bought every single city state on the planet (I took the religious bonus for city state buying), contrary to advice and despite the hostility it provoked. And when the Ottomans came roaring through at depressingly regular intervals, they had to fight through my devoted city state allies which dented them somewhat before they got to me. Nevertheless, it was a close thing and Suleiman was close to holding half the cities on the planet, having wiped out three other civs.

I did bee-line industrialism, chose Order and got it voted in as the world ideology before anyone else had a competing ideology. Helped a lot, especially since the AI likes Order so I acquired pals as time went by.

And eventually I won, though not on the first vote. My first deity victory, a diplomatic win, not peaceful but I didn't fight willingly, nor did I take a single city. I had just three pretty poor cities with 5 gems and 1 pearl all game.

So yes, you can follow this strategy and win, even with psycho neighbours, regular DoWs and diligent religion-mongering competitors (I had Austria relentlessly converting city states and trying for a diplomatic marriage throughout). A fun game and thanks for the tips - I'm a patient player, it paid off, and there was quite a lot of excitement in the process, especially the tense moments wondering whether I could take the last attacking unit before my poor battered capital finally fell ...

I don't understand what you mean by "broken" diplomatic victory. This was seriously thought-provoking as a strategy and not by any means a doddle. Go Pious Teeny Builders with Pointy Sticks

Shokatshin said:

I'm sorry, I mean to say, is there a map type (i.e. Small Continents, Archipelago, Pangaea, Tiny Islands, etc.) that this strategy would often do consistently well on? Or does it truly boil down to how the geopolitical situation turns out more than anything?

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I think it probably does boil down to geopolitics, but I chose archipelago with Polynesia and it worked well - I got a lot of huts, which really helped. And my city state allies were a fantastic defence against a relentless Suleiman. They had lots of ships and were very active when his armies came sailing in.

I know the idea is that you don't get DoWs - but I did. Tons. And yet it still worked out, although it really was touch and go at times.

Misotu said:

Nope, this idea works and doesn't need either a passive AI or even non-competing religions, funnily enough. You should give it a go yourself, maybe?

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You mistake my meaning. I did not say it doesn't work. I just think, for good reasons (see below), that diplomacy is a broken victory so having a strategy centered around that does not say much about the strategy itself.
It's not my place to dissect the guide of someone else so I won't say more on it specifically. Just that I'd be more interested if it wasn't focus so much on DV.

I don't understand what you mean by "broken" diplomatic victory.

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1. You can access the world leader vote regardless of your tech advancement. Other civs bring you closer to victory.
2. The AI does not understand the diplo victory. It is simply not coded to be competitive over it. It just accidently win it when an AI like Alex somewhat accidently gets enough city states by accident. The AI will sit on 10000 gold while you win diplo. There is no routine to make it go all out. It simply uses the same reason for abandoning a city states no matter if it wants to win diploV or not: if the other civ has more than the value of a medium gift above it, then it won't try to buy the city states.

Individually these 2 points wouldn't be too bad. 1 alone does not make victory easy, if the AI was agressive about it. And it could be argued that point 2 is also the case for the other victories. Especially domination. But at least there are some AI routines to try to make it achieve Science or Culture.
Put together these 2 things make Diplo kind of broken in my opinion. I also raise my eyebrows when someone says Venice is a top tier deity civ because it wins diplo very easily

I agree diplo victory is easy to win even without using this guide. The usual 4 city tradition science approach can win diplo easy if you beeline to globalisation. Also can definitely be much faster than using this approach. Also Suleiman is one of those leader I never would trust to be his friend, he will DoW suddenly if you don't keep him busy with bribes. Also Archipelago is probably a bad map for AI especially they are bad at water maps. If you spawned on Pangaea next to Suleiman, you'll see a different picture.

Sclb said:

I agree diplo victory is easy to win even without using this guide.

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To even further illustrate my point:

Here is a small diplomatic victory (quick speed):

Using an excellent policy strategy:

and never filled a scientist slot. Just got my extra votes while I was 20% behind the AI, spent all in city states, waited, win.

I think people are missing the point with this guide. Surely everyone knows that this guide is not really about teaching a person to play optimally, or whatever. I think the OP made it clear that this is just another way to play. One that is quite different, quite fun, and also offers people who have been struggling to beat Deity a fun and easy way to do it.

Regulars at CFC S&P know that I almost never bother with religion at all in my Deity games, but I had fun applying elements of this guide on a few of the DCLs, just for variety.

And there is no doubt that Piety has its place. It could do with a boost, but there are some games when things can go right for you. It's not consistent enough to be a universally-good strategy, but on DCL #1 I had like more than half of all cities following my religion at one point. Good fun.

@Acken Fair points on DV but like you say, it's hard to see that the DV is more "broken" than any other victory from that point of view. And Venice and Austria may not go for DV themselves, but they really get in the way - there are no similar barriers to other victories.

You were saying the strategy relies on a "passive" AI and I was just saying that actually it really doesn't. True, the strategy aims at managing the AI into passivity, but my experience was that the AI DoWed all the time on me and on each other. I obviously haven't got the AI puppetmaster thing down yet

Religion is quite a good tool for managing the AI and great for generating cash from a small empire but I agree it's not the only route, or even the best route. I think the OP positioned this as a fun alternative rather than an optimal strategy - and it was fun trying piety for the first time and getting a deity win. It taught me quite a lot I didn't know about religion spread and the value of different religion attribute choices too.

I did have the tech level to get the world leader vote going btw - Globalisation is a way up the tree It might be quite hard to win without that if you have either Venice or Austria around - I had Austria and she fought hard to ally with her target CS states.

@Sclb I spawned on archipelago right next to Suleiman and he fought well. The first wave was galleasses, each protecting a janissary flawlessly all the way over the short stretch of water. He's a notorious nutter, and obviously I didn't trust him but the point is he made it hard. He had a lot of units and he deployed them intelligently. He also allied with a city state on my island just before the first DoW, which was a smart move (I made sure that never happened again ). I fought more in this game than I've ever had to do on any other peaceful victory game and the battles were tough and interesting. I very nearly lost on at least two occasions, and if he'd taken one of my cities I would never have got it back.

The challenge was taking him out without losing my units, which I couldn't replace fast enough. This required a lot of care and some hard choices.

Everyone talks about bribes - leaving aside the cheesiness of it, I found it useless. He'd take the bribe, insisting on gpt, and then make peace with the other AI after about 10 turns, leaving me with a bill for another 30+ turns. I just couldn't afford it in the end, it cost too much and I had better uses for the gold (rushing castles and galleasses for example) so I think I wouldn't have bothered if I'd known more before playing this game. "Keeping him busy" with bribes was simply not achievable.

A small, tight empire is quite strong defensively, even on Pangaea, if you have choke points, so I actually would rate my chances. But I know it's fun to diss water maps I like them, the naval aspect adds interest. With Pangaea, you only need to sail to locate city states, which makes it a bit ho hum. And actually once the AI has galleasses they can mount a very serious attack on archipelago - I've never seen an AI bombard me effectively with six cats or trebuchets all at once, but Suleiman was hitting me with six or more galleasses, while suiciding triremes on my walls. You can really crowd the ships in on water in a way that you can rarely achieve on land, and of course ships can get in and out of trouble way easier than land units. The key is protecting the land units with ships when embarked - and he really did get that right almost all of the time.

I should add that I played on epic, not quick speed, which favours war mongers I believe.

Acken said:

To even further illustrate my point:

Here is a small diplomatic victory (quick speed):

Spoiler :

Using an excellent policy strategy:

Spoiler :

and never filled a scientist slot. Just got my extra votes while I was 20% behind the AI, spent all in city states, waited, win.

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Acken - can't wait when you write 'First two policies from each tree strategy' guide and will get many faithfull followers.