How to Xbow Rush -2Cities NC into Machinery.

i_imperator · Dec 16, 2015

Hey all,

So I've been trying to give this rush strategy a try, but I find that there's something wrong with my play, either build order or something else that's causing me to get NC incredibly late (T75-90, which is far too late for 2 cities). I always feel as if my cities are far too low in population too. I was wondering what is the best way to go about this and how do I achieve Machinery by T100? I would appreciate any Input or suggestions, and if someone could give me a general build order for this too.

See spoiler for the map/setup (For TSG73) I've been trying this out with. I am considering giving China a go with this start on emperor, as my current attempt isn't working out too much.

Spoiler :

Sclb · Dec 16, 2015

Poor production start isn't good for rushing, you need a better map.

i_imperator · Dec 16, 2015

Since it was on King I figured i would be able to do it, i rolled a china start on emperor anyways and this is what I got.

Settings Pangaea Standard Standard, Random Opponents.

Aea · Dec 16, 2015

Honestly the only times I've done this was when dealing with very limited land (but with lots of plantation resources), settle one city, focus on production and military. Need to have lots of composite bowmen ready to go as soon as you hit Machinery and upgrade them. With two cities it should be easy to get them both pretty big and grab the early game buildings fast (I do kinda recommend a library, especially as China). I typically save the NC for post machinery.

It's quite a rare combination of events that make this a good decision, you need to have decent production, decent gold, an easily hittable opponent, and no good expansion possibilities.

The big upside of this is that national wonders are just so easy, just puppet the cities you take and crank out that Circus Maximus, Ironworks, Grand Temple (if you've got a religion) super quickly.

Sclb · Dec 16, 2015

No need to have limited land, you can easily just forward settle AI if you're planing to rush them anyway. Plains is best type of land for capital or first civ. Both 2 or 3 cities work depending on your style. Left side liberty is preferred start due to free settler and quick production of settler. You don't want more self founded cities as it's just draining your happiness. Library is good for China, but usually you want to pump ranged units before you bother with science buildings. They should only be built as you get ready to get NC. And you should get NC after you get construction but before machinery as it takes too long without NC. Don't bother with national wonders if you're trying to rush, other than NC. I usually only build them in the industrial era where I'm finishing up conquest and may switch to another victory condition that isn't domination.

There are 2 different styles, one style involves rushing with CB, taking 1-2 capitals before machinery, the other prefer taking no AI capitals before machinery, instead you train your CB on CS to level them up. Just keep shooting CS and rotating injured ones out and never capture the CS or make peace with it. You can use a fortified melee unit with cover promotion to bait the hits so you can stay longer. Aim for range promotion for China, but otherwise you want logistic.

Aea · Dec 16, 2015

But there's little reason to do this unless you're lacking land. You're almost better off expanding peacefully IMHO, especially early on.

Lord Yanaek · Dec 17, 2015

I tend to be a peaceful expander myself but i can see why you would want to produce units that don't stop your growth rather than settlers that do and possibly get some wonders without taking the time to build them (especially on higher difficulty)

However, i don't really get why Liberty is favored for this strategy. The fast settlers are no big deal if you only produce 1-2. You'll get workers since you're warring. You won't need the finisher Great Engineer to get your NC with 2-3 self founded cities. You get only the road based happiness since the other part of Meritocracy is for non occupied cities and puppets don't increase SP cost.

Why not go Honor (especially with China), get a General and your promotions fast and once you finish it, get some money from your kills and discount on unit upgrade (as you'll want to keep your super promoted units)? Even Tradition would seem better for this as your few self founded cities will be much better faster and Oligarchy will help you defend your cities if someone decides they hate you for all your warmongering.

mbbcam · Dec 17, 2015

Try these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvDosx_OQs0
https://youtu.be/J0Cp3c5369w?list=PL5IXV43xjKWRhfjKKYbtNoT92HQXq0YIj (China)

And some guides:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=547630
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=503931 (Liberty comp bow rush).

i_imperator · Dec 17, 2015

Bob Morane said:
I tend to be a peaceful expander myself but i can see why you would want to produce units that don't stop your growth rather than settlers that do and possibly get some wonders without taking the time to build them (especially on higher difficulty)

However, i don't really get why Liberty is favored for this strategy. The fast settlers are no big deal if you only produce 1-2. You'll get workers since you're warring. You won't need the finisher Great Engineer to get your NC with 2-3 self founded cities. You get only the road based happiness since the other part of Meritocracy is for non occupied cities and puppets don't increase SP cost.

Why not go Honor (especially with China), get a General and your promotions fast and once you finish it, get some money from your kills and discount on unit upgrade (as you'll want to keep your super promoted units)? Even Tradition would seem better for this as your few self founded cities will be much better faster and Oligarchy will help you defend your cities if someone decides they hate you for all your warmongering.

The great person finisher is probably the reason why liberty is better for this strategy, and the bonus from workers +mids can come really useful if you plan on the pillage+repair on the same turn strategy

Aea said:
But there's little reason to do this unless you're lacking land. You're almost better off expanding peacefully IMHO, especially early on.

I'm more curious about this rush than anything else. I've never done it properly before and id like to learn how to do it.

Sclb said:
No need to have limited land, you can easily just forward settle AI if you're planing to rush them anyway. Plains is best type of land for capital or first civ. Both 2 or 3 cities work depending on your style. Left side liberty is preferred start due to free settler and quick production of settler. You don't want more self founded cities as it's just draining your happiness. Library is good for China, but usually you want to pump ranged units before you bother with science buildings. They should only be built as you get ready to get NC. And you should get NC after you get construction but before machinery as it takes too long without NC. Don't bother with national wonders if you're trying to rush, other than NC. I usually only build them in the industrial era where I'm finishing up conquest and may switch to another victory condition that isn't domination.

There are 2 different styles, one style involves rushing with CB, taking 1-2 capitals before machinery, the other prefer taking no AI capitals before machinery, instead you train your CB on CS to level them up. Just keep shooting CS and rotating injured ones out and never capture the CS or make peace with it. You can use a fortified melee unit with cover promotion to bait the hits so you can stay longer. Aim for range promotion for China, but otherwise you want logistic.

So the basic idea you would go for is military>science, would you tech for machinery or philosophy first then? In TSG73 i noticed that the CB rush is what Tabarnack did, even with a poor production start. Would tradition be possible at all with this strategy? Most domination guides i've seen focus on liberty.

Aea said:
Honestly the only times I've done this was when dealing with very limited land (but with lots of plantation resources), settle one city, focus on production and military. Need to have lots of composite bowmen ready to go as soon as you hit Machinery and upgrade them. With two cities it should be easy to get them both pretty big and grab the early game buildings fast (I do kinda recommend a library, especially as China). I typically save the NC for post machinery.

It's quite a rare combination of events that make this a good decision, you need to have decent production, decent gold, an easily hittable opponent, and no good expansion possibilities.

The big upside of this is that national wonders are just so easy, just puppet the cities you take and crank out that Circus Maximus, Ironworks, Grand Temple (if you've got a religion) super quickly.

If NC is post Machinery, would you go for education and get unis up straight afterwards?

mbbcam said:
Try these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvDosx_OQs0
https://youtu.be/J0Cp3c5369w?list=PL5IXV43xjKWRhfjKKYbtNoT92HQXq0YIj (China)

And some guides:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=547630
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=503931 (Liberty comp bow rush).

Thanks very much, ill look into them once i get a chance!

Sclb · Dec 17, 2015

Bob Morane said:
... but i can see why you would want to produce units that don't stop your growth rather than settlers that do and possibly get some wonders ...

That is correct, and by hard building at most 1 settler, your cities can pump units and grow as much as possible to get higher production and increase the unit cap. The only reason to get additional cities would be to hook up lux and increase unit cap. Actually OCC is doable but is a major problem due to unit cap, and having to always return to capital to upgrade (cities instantly raze in OCC)

However, i don't really get why Liberty is favored for this strategy.

GE can be used for NC to save many turns which you use to build units, or other wonders such as Machu Picchu which helps with the huge cost in road connections both for moving troops and connecting capitals. Eventually when you pick up Commerce and especially Mercantilism/Big Ben, you'll want to buy units/courthouse, and in order to do that, you have to annex cities.

Why not go Honor (especially with China)...

Honor is good for higher difficulty especially deity when AI pumps huge amount of units in no time. In fact it is the core of the HCA that you might've heard about. However I find that Honor or Tradition is too slow for CB rushes. It's ok if you want to start warring with machinery and use CS to train. Tradition is better for artillery or later wars. For China you'll get more GG than you know what to do with them anyways.

Lord Yanaek · Dec 17, 2015

So you rush NC even with only 2-3 cities. Interesting. HCA is how i go when i decide to try domination so i've never really used a rush strategy and using a GE this way seems like a waste to me, but i guess if you plan to finish really fast even a 10 turns NC is worth rushing.

How to Xbow Rush -2Cities NC into Machinery.

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