Getting Started

Thalassicus · Jun 9, 2011

I forgot to specifically point out here it's policy rate that's important (I explain in more depth in the linked thread). The game's tooltip says cities increase cost, which is true but potentially misleading. When I started Civ 5 I thought each city slows policy generation by 30%, but each city also adds to income, so it affects policy rate in a more complicated way.

The change to Representation affects policy rate by 1-5% per city, depending on empire size. You can experiment with the numbers without a calculator with the spreadsheet I use. On the "Policy Cost per City" sheet, "Lib, Rep, Monuments" row, the "Expense" value can be changed from 20% to 10% to see the difference between vanilla and mod (respectively). Most empires vary between 5 and 20 cities.

Seek · Jun 9, 2011

Representation works backwards to include all cities - it doesn't matter when you choose it. When I originally suggested buffing it, I thought 50% would be a good amount but Thal decided on 67%, which does make it worthwhile for a small empire as well as a large one.

Ahriman · Jun 9, 2011

Let me try this to see if I understand correctly;

In the mod, the base cost for the 11th policy (given that you have bought 10) is 585 culture points (from your spreadsheet). Suppose I have 5 cities. This means that the actual cost is 585*(1+0.3*(5-1)) = 1287.

Now suppose I have the cost reduction Liberty policy (Republic?). Then instead, the cost of the 11th policy is 585*(1+0.1*(5-1)) = 819.

Thus, with 5 cities, the marginal cost of a policy has been reduced by Republic by (1- 819/1287) = 36.4%.

Thus, at 5 cities, getting the Republic policy was the same as if it increased my culture production by 36.4% in all my cities. Except that it is better than a +36.4% modifier, because it works cumulatively with any other percentage modifier.

If we move to 10 cities, it gets even more powerful. Without Republic, the cost is 585*(1+0.3*(10-1)) = 2165. With Republic, the cost is 585*(1+0.1*(10-1)) = 1112. So the marginal cost of the 11th policy has been reduced by (1- 1112/2165) = 49%.

For a single policy this seems far too strong. I recommend a dramatic reduction.

This is an early tree policy, and yet it is at least as effective as the much later game Free Speech. I think that seems wrong.

civnoob13 · Jun 10, 2011

How come the initial policy now costs 50 culture?

Zaldron · Jun 10, 2011

civnoob13 said:
How come the initial policy now costs 50 culture?

The palace was doubled to 2 culture/turn so the first policy still comes at 25 turns. But this way an early cultural ruin isn't as overpowered.

civnoob13 · Jun 10, 2011

Zaldron said:
The palace was doubled to 2 culture/turn so the first policy still comes at 25 turns. But this way an early cultural ruin isn't as overpowered.

Later policy costs aren't affected then?

Thalassicus · Jun 11, 2011

Policy costs are affected like this:

Chart

Culture income is also rebalanced in the mod (such as with opera houses and museums).

V. Soma · Jun 13, 2011

Hi, I played Beta 7.2.5 (5?), so anyway, and on King level, small Continents Plus map:

AI Siam got into Future age in ca. 1720!!! Siam's Capital city was size 46!!! Uhh...
Is that OK? AI is that good? On King level?
Siam won the game with UN votes, CSD mod was applied...

Thalassicus · Jun 13, 2011

Siam's trait increases their food, which affects research rate. Ramkam is also a very peaceful leader, so he tends to make lots of friends, and each declaration of friendship slightly increases research pace. It's not uncommon for Ramkam to have large cities and a high tech rate.

Txurce · Jun 13, 2011

V. Soma said:
Hi, I played Beta 7.2.5 (5?), so anyway, and on King level, small Continents Plus map:

AI Siam got into Future age in ca. 1720!!! Siam's Capital city was size 46!!! Uhh...
Is that OK? AI is that good? On King level?
Siam won the game with UN votes, CSD mod was applied...

Yes, this sounds like a good, but not unusually good, Siam game.

Ahriman · Jun 13, 2011

Ahriman said:
Let me try this to see if I understand correctly;

Thal,
Can you confirm that I've understood this correctly?
This really does seem too strong, especially for a policy that is available early in the game.

I suggest that rather than reducing the multiplier from 0.3 to 0.1, it drops it to 0.15 at the very lowest. Better, leave it at 0.2 but give some other ability as well.

Otherwise, adding more cities can easily *increase* the rate of cultural advancement. I don't think that is a good design.

mitsho · Jun 13, 2011

It's not really a bug, probably just something that has been forgotten: Workshops still require "plains"/no hills to be built. Before they were called Windmills and then it made sense, but I don't see a reason for them to not be buildable in the Hills... ;-)

Thalassicus · Jun 14, 2011

@Ahriman
I changed it to .15 in Friday's v7.2.4.

From what I've seen with the spreadsheets, it's very difficult to create a situation where adding cities increases policy rate. Even at .10 the policy rate generally slows by 2-5% per city under the best of circumstances.

@mitsho
I actually changed the name because people felt it unrealistic that windmills were buildable everywhere except hills. It's a little more plausible for a workshop to be built on level ground... though still needs suspension of disbelief. It's to balance the advantages hill-cities get (defense bonus and +1 :c5production:

).

Txurce · Jun 14, 2011

Thalassicus said:
@mitsho
I actually changed the name because people felt it unrealistic that windmills were buildable everywhere except hills.

What I found odd about that complaint is that I've only seen windmills on flat or coastal areas, where the wind is much more consistent.

Questdog · Jun 14, 2011

In previous Civ, windmills were an improvement that could only be built on hills...

Ahriman · Jun 14, 2011

Txurce said:
What I found odd about that complaint is that I've only seen windmills on flat or coastal areas, where the wind is much more consistent.

In many countries, modern wind turbines are on ridges of hills.

For example:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/33624770@N00/3580004327/

It does seem a bit bizarre that a "workshop" would require flat land, when a factory doesn't.

I don't really care about the realism here though, whatever works in a gameplay sense is fine.

SlightlyMad · Jun 15, 2011

Clearly, if you put your tools down on a table that was set up on a hill, they would all just roll right off! Therefore workshops can only be built on flat land.

Ahriman · Jun 16, 2011

On the latest full changelog.
Can you explain what this means:

Changed how unit supply works. It now applies only to land military units, and the effect starts at 10 + 2 * (# cities) units.

Is this a free unit supply? So if I have 5 cities, my first 20 gold of unit maintenance costs are free?

I dislike the open borders gold bonus. It's too easy to get, it punishes isolated players to much, the total gold income affect can be quite large, it favors gold-oriented civs as opposed to production oriented civs, it has a trade bonus but without any actual trade route connection.

SlightlyMad · Jun 16, 2011

Does the open borders gold become available right away, or is it unlocked by a tech? If it's felt that it punishes open borders too much (really though, let's play it out before jumping to conclusions), it could be unlocked at Optics so by that point everybody will have met everyone else anyways.

Zaldron · Jun 16, 2011

SlightlyMad said:
Does the open borders gold become available right away, or is it unlocked by a tech? If it's felt that it punishes open borders too much (really though, let's play it out before jumping to conclusions), it could be unlocked at Optics so by that point everybody will have met everyone else anyways.

Or would astronomy be better so that even cross-continental civs could be metat that point? Or is that too late to matter much?

Getting Started

Bytes and Nibblers

Deity

Tyrant

King

King

King

Bytes and Nibblers

long time civ fan

Bytes and Nibblers

Deity

Tyrant

Deity

Bytes and Nibblers

Deity

Prince

Tyrant

Prince

Tyrant

Prince

King

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