RA: The biggest Bug never fixed!!!

Well, I think, not necessarily. If there's only one Civ ahead it will be slowed down by not being able to sign any other RAs until others catch up, in that case it could just sell its techs - and now that I'm thinking it shouldn't also sell the same tech to other Civs for the time its current RA is on. If more Civs are ahead they are already running away by means of multiple RAs signed with weaker Civs as well. The formers get even more powerful tech, the latters keep on lagging behind. I don't see how the latters could be better favorited now than with this new ipothesis.
I don't see that. It would handicap civs that either got ahead of the pack (era-wise) or fell behind. I don't have a problem with that.

I mean, let's imagine there are few civs which are behind others in tech. They could only sign RA with each other, so if they aren't numerous, they become more and more behind others.

On the other hand, if there's one leading civ, the civ could research some techs on its own, wait for other civs to reach the same era, sign RA with them and on RA completion, rocket jump to the next era again, keeping constant leadership.

How do RAs help diplomacy?
RA for diplomacy doesn't work (not beyond any other trade, anyway). I have yet to encounter anyone but you who believes in it.
Exactly, it's not more than other trade, it's exactly the same. You can't prevent yourself from being attacking using RA only, but it's the part of strategy, including resource trade, DoF, keeping borders guarded, etc.
 
I mean, let's imagine there are few civs which are behind others in tech. They could only sign RA with each other, so if they aren't numerous, they become more and more behind others.

Not really, because players usually aren't totally maxed on RAs for a variety of reasons such as having better things to spend the money on, not knowing everyone, hostility of potential partners etc. Being in the wrong era is just another blockage to RAs and would not *necessarily* be overwhelmingly important.

On the other hand, if there's one leading civ, the civ could research some techs on its own, wait for other civs to reach the same era, sign RA with them and on RA completion, rocket jump to the next era again, keeping constant leadership.

One RA is unlikely to "rocket jump" a civ to the next era, and other civs can research techs on their own. The laggard and leader civ have exactly the same handicap: inability to sign RAs.
 
Not really, because players usually aren't totally maxed on RAs for a variety of reasons such as having better things to spend the money on, not knowing everyone, hostility of potential partners etc. Being in the wrong era is just another blockage to RAs and would not *necessarily* be overwhelmingly important.

One RA is unlikely to "rocket jump" a civ to the next era, and other civs can research techs on their own. The laggard and leader civ have exactly the same handicap: inability to sign RAs.

Yes, the limitations work for both laggard and leader civs, with one exception:

For leaders:
Inability to sign RA = Slower tech = Ability to sign RA again after other civs reach the same epoch.

For laggards: Inability to sign RA = Slower tech = Inability to sign RA ever.
 
Yes, the limitations work for both laggard and leader civs, with one exception:

For leaders:
Inability to sign RA = Slower tech = Ability to sign RA again after other civs reach the same epoch.

For laggards: Inability to sign RA = Slower tech = Inability to sign RA ever.

Why would laggards always be unable to catch up through their own research? rejoining the pack could just be a matter of researching one tech.

RAs aren't important in the early game, at least on the Immortal level. In my current game I didn't sign any (despite many offers) until I had completed Machinery, and now I'm the tech leader.
 
i would change ra to the following: GPT for science or culture. cultural exchanges happen all the time as well as science shareing.
1 gold per research with a 1 time reward of all accumulated research at the end of the deal. giveing a total of 2x research worth of gold.
specialists should give -2 gpp and +3 science,culture,gold,production.
Great persons should increase 2x as fast in cost, but be separate. so a great scientist will not increase the cost of an engineer.
the gpp pool should be global and not local

Ra and GS bulbing will be curved to a standstill and hard teching will be one of the few ways to get most of the techs.
also other great persons will not be detrimental to get. in fact the optimal play would be to get some of each.
 
Hey guys, did you hear? The USA did a science exchange with Afghanistan and now Afghanistan knows how to build tanks and the USA knows how to make fusion reactors! How awesome is that?
 
Hey, did you hear? The US had an agreement where they worked together with Israel and researched a computer virus with military application against Iran*

The problem with analogies is they some times work, they some times don't. Afghanistan is a poor analogy for many reasons. Just using game concepts, they don't have the resources to devote to cooperative technological development.

* Allegedly, although Stuxnet is obviously classified.
 
Hey, did you hear? The US had an agreement where they worked together with Israel and researched a computer virus with military application against Iran*

Citation needed.

Hell, it would be just as ridiculous for the US to make a research agreement with India or China - there is just nothing for the US to learn from non-first-world nations.

Anyway, Afghanistan would work just fine if the US gave them 250 gold.

Plus you have the whole stupidity where one country gains a completely different tech to another. Surely if they were collaborating they would've gotten the same thing? Research agreements are stupid, but they'd be okay if this was a "it's stupid but it makes the game better" issue. But it isn't.
 
You could also analogize it as just exchange between peoples. Literal tech trading doesn't normally happen for most of human history either. Research agreements was a compromise rather than remove it entirely.

You don't think US companies and Indian companies pool their resources together and come up with advances together?

As for the citation needed, you did see my asterisk, right? Stuxnet is fascinating, but it's obviously highly, highly classified.
 
Guarded AIs shouldn't sign RAs with you. Only neutral and friendly.
That would solve some problems I guess.

I don't have any other idea to really balance them other than decreasing the amount of beakers you get from them. I mean, they are fine in early/mid game.
And great scientists shouldn't grant full techs. Same mechanic, same imbalance.

That is completely how it should be! You are absolutely right! What is the point in guarded or hostile civilizations making research agreements. I hope that this will be a future patch. Now it is just too easy to get technologies. Who needs a high science income when you can make tons of research agreements?
 
I always thought the best way of doing research agreements was the Master of Orion 2 way - you make the agreement, and for about five turns you have to pay a decreasing amount of money to set the agreement up.

Then from that point onwards, you got an amount of research for free that was based on the science output of both nations.

They did the same for trade agreements - you paid a bit in at first, then you got money back until the agreement was cancelled.

Wonder if it can be modded in.
 
Look, if you don't like RAs, there are several ways to fix it in mods. Here are a couple that have been done so far:

1> In Thalassicus' "Vanilla Enhanced Mod" (by far the most popular Civ5 mod in existence), he tweaks RAs to give a larger number of beakers to the civ with the lower number of techs and a lower number to the tech leader. This generally makes RAs a good "catching up" mechanism for the folks who've fallen behind, and not something a tech leader can use to maintain his lead.

2> Long ago there was a "Tech Diffusion" mod that mimicked the Civ4 method, where a civ would get a bonus number of beakers each turn if they were researching a tech that other civs had already completed. I know, this is not really about RAs, but it definitely changed the appeal of those, as you didn't have quite the impetus to gain techs at all costs.

3> Quite a few mods adjust RA costs directly. In my own mod, they're basically doubled. You see, the AI's decision process is purely probabilistic; there's no ability to create long-term plans. So what happens in vanilla is fairly straightforward; let's say the AI has X gold (the amount needed to buy the RA). Its choices at that point are basically: bribe a city-state, rush a unit, rush a building, enter into an RA, buy a resource from another player, or do nothing and save it up.

The problem is, the default value needed to buy an RA in any given era is almost always significantly lower than the amount needed to rush the units or buildings available in that era. So what happens in practice is that the AI will spend at least a half-dozen turns deciding between "enter into an RA" and "do nothing" before it reaches the point where any other options are available; even if the odds of picking the RA are low, there are just too many opportunities to do so over those half-dozen turns, so the chances of it actually saving up enough gold to rush units or buildings are very low. In practice, then, you see a bunch of RAs.

Now, what happens if you increase the costs of an RA, say by doubling the costs across the board? Suddenly, the situation is reversed; now, rushing a unit or building is cheaper than an RA, and it's much more likely that the AI will "pull the trigger" and use the gold to rush something instead of saving it up for an RA. You'll still see RAs fairly often, since the AI will be much more likely to make a gold-for-resource trade deal with another AI and get a sudden influx of cash to jump above the RA threshold (or enter a Golden Age and get cash faster), but it won't be the sort of all-consuming cycle you see in the vanilla game where each AI player will enter an RA as soon as any other civ has enough spare cash.
In my own mod, this is exactly what's happened. You'll see a few RAs, but if a civ is in a war it's far more likely to spend any extra cash on an extra unit that it desperately needs, which means it won't save up enough to participate in RAs. It's proven to be much more balanced in practice.

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Now, what really needs to happen, IMO, is to tie RAs to other diplomatic functions. Imagine, if you will, a scenario where you can only enter into an RA with a civ with which you have an active Declaration of Friendship, with all of the diplomatic effects that implies. Suddenly, it becomes much harder to have multiple RAs running simultaneously. But this sort of redesign would require the DLL, which we don't have at present.
 
Look, if you don't like RAs, there are several ways to fix it in mods.

I play multiplayer. Thanks for the words though.

I have no idea why the latest "multiplayer patch" didn't allow you to play multiplayer modded.
 
Pretty interesting Spatzimaus. I hope they will think about doing something like this for a next patch or expansion. Too bad we can't use mods for multi like Gort said and no mods yet for GOTM and HoF entries.
 
Spatzimaus makes some interesting points, especially the third - the one about the way the AI evaluates available choices.

The First point -
1> In Thalassicus' "Vanilla Enhanced Mod" (by far the most popular Civ5 mod in existence), he tweaks RAs to give a larger number of beakers to the civ with the lower number of techs and a lower number to the tech leader. This generally makes RAs a good "catching up" mechanism for the folks who've fallen behind, and not something a tech leader can use to maintain his lead.
is a non-fix, IMO. In fact, I think it breaks the mechanic even further. If the player enjoys a tech lead, the change merely lengthens the game somewhat by lessening the benefit RAs provide. This encourages the player to flex his tech muscle while he's got it, encouraging a military style of play - which exacerbates an already endemic problem.

Furthermore, if the player is behind technologically, RAs become even more broken, as the player benefits even more.

The second point - the "tech diffusion" suggestion - already exists: you receive a discount to the research cost of each tech based on how many civs that you know already know the tech. This is why early scouting is so important.
 
Personally, I disabled RA's in singleplayer (obviously). I just did it though.

Disabling meaning, removing the unlock feature from the technology Philosophy. So researching it never unlocks the ability to trade them.
 
Let us know how it compares. One good thing about research agreements is it encourages diplomacy. The denounce/friend dichotomy only works if you have some reason to be friendly to other Civs. Otherwise, there's very little reason to try to balance who likes who and then choose sides. Sure you can request favors if you're friends, but they're far more likely to request favors from you.
 
I think I'd prefer a mod that makes research agreements more expensive.

Removing RA's promotes DoW'ing.
 
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