Great Scientist: Academy vs Discover Tech

Earlier on when techs are only costing 100's it'll be a tougher choice. Use now for a couple hundred, save for later years when techs are costly, or get 5 per turn modified for a long time (probably have a library by the time you could build an academy so it'll be 6+ if they keep fractions).

Libraries modify citizen science production. It would have nothing to do with tile worked science production. That same worker would produce the same amount of science whether working in the Academy or mucking out the stalls in a Horse Pasture.

There's also the National College (national wonder, so probably a one-city improvement if you have libraries in every city), which gives +50% science. So overall, the best you can expect out of an Academy is +300% (i.e., 20 science per turn) by the Modern Age.

I still probably won't consider going that route anytime after the Medieval Age.
 
I'm guessing strategic resources will be spaced out, so as long as you place your specialist buildings next to one, you're pretty safe.
 
I can see Academies being great early and useless later. But that's not that big of a deal. Just use it to the best of your ability early. Then you can hopefully get a good tech lead so it isn't needed later. Then, if you happen to get one late, you can just use it to pop any tech you might fall behind on.
 
I can't see ever building an academy. This isn't like Civ 4, where a great person would only research the next tech in a list. Because the scientist can research any tech available to you, you can always get enormous value out of using it to get a single technology. An early GS can grab Civil Service (costs 4x what its most expensive prereq does) long before you could otherwise get it, and I'd bet the bonus food ends up netting more science than the academy. There are other Medieval techs that are available pretty early and which cost about 2x what their prereqs do too. In the Renaissance you can jump from Musketmen to Riflemen with 900 beakers for Metallurgy and a GS to jump Rifling (1425 beakers). And of course as the game progresses the relative value of the academy drop substantially.

Something that jumped out at me reading the manual is just how cheap Wonders are relative to units and buildings. Early game Wonders tend to cost 150-200 - this is about two barracks, 1.5 granaries, or 3 spearmen. The pattern generally holds throughout the tech tree. Renaissance Wonders are 500-700 hammers, or about 3 riflemen in hammers. This means that the first person to a tech has a much larger advantage than in Civ 4, since the relative cost of Wonders is so much lower. Being able to use a Scientist to guarantee a particularly valuable wonder is a really useful thing. I'm pretty tempted to try to avoid getting any other sort of Great Person just to push this along.
 
I think It's pretty clear that the academy is for early game benefit. To the person who mentioned rationilism; That comes in the renaissance ~ a point in time where you'd start bulbing over building academies anyway.

I don't think this is much different than civ4, as earlier scientists might build an academy or settle themselves at the start (the civ5 mechanic being more akin to settling than the building of the same name) ~ but as the game progressed, bulbing was clearly the way to go.
 
I'm not at all sure about the other GP improvements, either. They all sound pretty lame, except maybe for the manufactory (and that doesn't sound too great, either). Citadel might be useful at choke points but I guess that your opponent will be able to find a way around it in most cases.

Landmark is probably the best of the GP improvements (except perhaps Citadel, for which I have a wait-and-see attitude) since there isn't another tile improvement that gives +culture. The others are just slightly better versions of something you can get another way.
 
i would imagine that the great scientist tech popping ability only gains you part of later techs the same way the great engingeer can't fully rush late game wonders.
 
You'll invariably find yourself with a desert or tundra tile. Plop an Academy and boom... Silicon Valley! My big question is whether or not they clear a jungle. If they don't then you have a +3 food tile that will then yield 3 food 5 science. One pop and half a scientist in addition to the science... Add to that the fact that you get +2 science per jungle with a university and you have 3 food 7 science!

Please don't have these improvements cancel the Jungle's supreme awesomeness! ;)
 
This is true of an academy, as well as a Manufactory vs rushing a wonder I suspect. Late game wonders can cost over 1000 Hammers, and while the manual states that some of the most expensive items won't be completely rushable, you will be able to get a near finish. I'm guessing Engineers max at either 750 or 1000 hammers and anything beyond that is left over. Manufactories only provide +3 hammers according to the manual. Here are the building modifiers:

Forge 15%
Workshop 20%
Windmill 15%
Factory 50%
Solar Plant 25%
Nuclear plant 25%

If you manage to get all of those in a city by some miracle given the resource and terrain limits of the last 4, you get +150% which is 7.5 production from a Manufactory, ignoring whatever tile improvement it replaced. It would take 100 turns to make back a 750 hammer wonder rush in the late game, with a Manufactory. That completely ignores the benefit you'd get from having the wonder as well.

A customs house provides +4 gold with the following building modifiers.
Market+25%
Bank +25%
Stock Exchange +33%

Thus it provides 7.32 gold after building modification. We have no idea how much gold will be gained from a trade mission, though my best guess is that it will increase in return based on certain possible factors. Population of city state. Distance from City state. Tech level/era/how many turns into game you are. Unfortunately I have nothing to base the actual return of a trade mission on. If it's 750 gold or later, than again, in the late game it will take over 100 turns to recoup the one time mission with a tile improvement.

A landmark may be the only building worth it as a culture bomb's usefulness is entirely situational. The problem there is that you're giving up something that improves your cities output in a worker improvement, for culture. You're trading food, commerce or production for culture. That's a tough pill to swallow sometimes. On the other hand, a culture bomb does not appear to contribute towards SP popping so a landmark is the only GP action that can help in that way.

Personally I think I might use my great artists for golden ages if I don't need the culture bomb somewhere. The other 3 are always going to do their missions in late game. In early game, a scientist will always be used on a tech. A Manufactury *might* but build early if there's no desirable wonders at the time, though it will probably just be saved. A trade mission depends entirely on the return. If I get a merchant real early and trade missions are under 1000 gold, I actually might built the tile improvement afterall.
 
Hmmm, how about actually saving great scientists until techs begin getting more expensive? I think that a bulb would still be a lot better than an academy.

A customs house provides +4 gold with the following building modifiers.
Market+25%
Bank +25%
Stock Exchange +33%

Thus it provides 7.32 gold after building modification.

+25% if placed around the capital with Commerce.

I plan on making a Great Merchant farm with Elizabeth, so will want to spam custom houses around my capital with GM generating wonders.
 
Hmmm, how about actually saving great scientists until techs begin getting more expensive? I think that a bulb would still be a lot better than an academy.



+25% if placed around the capital with Commerce.

I plan on making a Great Merchant farm with Elizabeth, so will want to spam custom houses around my capital with GM generating wonders.

Wasn't factoring in special abilities and social policies in the numbers. MY bad.

Also, we don't know for a fact that scientists completely finish a late game tech. If it's like civ IV than the highly expensive techs at the end only get a portion of their beakers knocked off with a scientist. Also, most of the previous civ games did a pretty good job of keeping the turn costs of techs fairly constant throughout the game as you grow and add science buildings. A late game tech might end up costing fewer turns than an early game one depending on how the course of the game goes. Saving that scientist is a gamble. You must measure the instant benefits that the tech at hand gives you against the possible turns saved down the road. Rushing a 5 turn Military tech that lets you get out a winning army that much earlier might swing the game. On the other hand, rushing a 20 turn end game tech that gives a space ship part when you're on the verge of a culture victory seems pointless. You'd be better off taking the golden age.
 
Wasn't factoring in special abilities and social policies in the numbers. MY bad.

Also, we don't know for a fact that scientists completely finish a late game tech. If it's like civ IV than the highly expensive techs at the end only get a portion of their beakers knocked off with a scientist.

According to limits in OP and tech costs in manual, lightbulbing gives just enough beakers to get every single tech at once. This however is probably true only in lower levels (Prince-). On higher levels costs of the techs increase while bulbing limits probably don't, so you can't no longer bulb every tech at once.
 
Unfortunately, the manual states that: "If constructed atop a resource, the Special Improvement will not provide access to that resource." (from p.100)

I really, really, really hope the AI is dumb enough to build these.
 
Its a real shame that what appears to be GP settling has been moved out of the city and made more problematic because of the move. I guess I should just look at it like having to remove a mature cottage from a my only oil or something in civ4.

I suspect GPs will be tweaked in a patch.

Ultimately I'm just going to hold my breath untill I've played the game a few times and if ithe GP mechanic gets to me then I'll complain!

If your wondering how I'll hold my breath for so long its because I grafted some whale lungs onto my back....
 
I see it in the same light I did in Civ IV. Early in the game if you drop a Great Scientist as a specialist (in this case Academy) you are making 5 science each turn modified by your buildings. That would mean that Metal casting (a 250 science tech) could be researched in 50 turns by this tile alone. Add in all the modifiers and that could go down to the teens. Later in the game when the research requirements skyrocket you will get to the point where that one tile (even with the 350% potential research boost) returns less and less for the remainder of the game.

Simply put, I'd use my first Great Scientist for an Academy in the city I plan on having as my science city due to the long term science reward over the remaining turns of the game. The second scientist probably would pop for a tech, but it depends how far down the tree I am (and also if my science city has another bad tile (desert, tundra, etc.)
 
I see it in the same light I did in Civ IV.

That isn't possible. In civ IV you didn't screw yourself out of the game by blocking your only metal resource by building an academy.
 
That isn't possible. In civ IV you didn't screw yourself out of the game by blocking your only metal resource by building an academy.

You can always have a worker build a new improvement over it. Don't make an academy until you know where the iron and horses are. By the time you get to the other strategic resources you would have gotten plenty of benefit from an early academy. It's like expending a GP on a Golden Age only this time you just get science from it.
 
You can always have a worker build a new improvement over it.

So you ruin the precious great person you just burned off. Absolutely WONDERFUL game mechanic there.

P.S. Home to see you on-line.
 
Maybe if you build over/desroy a GP improvemnet you could be offered a chance to pay an amount of gold to get the GP back.
 
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