Final Frontier Plus

in worldbuilder, how does one go about PROPERLY adding a resource to a planet? it seems that i can add it to a star system, but not any specific planet. (and thus, can't build the appropriate building.)
 
tai4ji2x said:
in worldbuilder, how does one go about PROPERLY adding a resource to a planet? it seems that i can add it to a star system, but not any specific planet. (and thus, can't build the appropriate building.)
Click to expand...

You can't add it to a specific planet- the interface isn't that sophisticated. Adding a resource to a star system adds it to that star system's current building planet.
 
I'm a realy noobie at this because I've never downloaded a mod before, but this one sounded so cool that I had to try it. However, in the install instructions it says all I have to do is run the exe, but when I try to run final frontier plus 1.60 it won't install in my mods folder for CIv, instead it tries to install itself into the mod folder of a different game. Is this because I'm playing Civ through steam and therefore the path isn't what it would normally look like? I'm pretty sure the mod has to be installed to
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\sid meier's civilization iv beyond the sword\Beyond the Sword\Mods but I don't know how to properly install it.
 
TC01 said:
You can't add it to a specific planet- the interface isn't that sophisticated. Adding a resource to a star system adds it to that star system's current building planet.
Click to expand...

right, that's what i had assumed would be the case as well. but it doesn't seem to work. i've tried adding to unsettled and already-settled stars, with no luck on either. the resource shows up on the tile, but none of the planets say it "provides [so and so resource...] when i move my cursor over it, and the appropriate building never shows up as an option in the build menu, no matter which planet i choose to build on. i've tried with cotton, wine, grain, seafood, cattle, etc. still no luck.
 
oh, and another thing i'm curious about, playing as red syndicate: where does the +1 each of food and hammers from trade routes come in? i built warp lanes between stars, and the trade routes show up in the "city screen" on the next turn, but it seems the hammer and food outputs remain unchanged. never played vanilla final frontier, so don't know if this was an issue there as well.
 
tai4ji2x said:
oh, and another thing i'm curious about, playing as red syndicate: where does the +1 each of food and hammers from trade routes come in? i built warp lanes between stars, and the trade routes show up in the "city screen" on the next turn, but it seems the hammer and food outputs remain unchanged. never played vanilla final frontier, so don't know if this was an issue there as well.
Click to expand...

Uh-oh. Looks like a bug (or two).

I just did a quick test as the Red Syndicate (world builder in a colony ship, some defenders, and some rapid construction ships into a new game, then founded a colony and connected it to the home system) and in both population 1 star systems with 1 trade route...

1) the extra food and production are not listed in the trade route yields in that part of the city screen (I don't think they ever were in regular FF, but they should be)

2) the 1 extra food is not being applied, all of the food can be accounted for as coming from the planet

3) I see one extra :hammers: beyond what the one population on the planet is giving, so that is presumably coming from the trade route

So I check the CIV4TraitInfos.xml file for the definition of TRAIT_SYNDICATE nad it turns out that it has this:
Code: 
			<TradeRouteYieldChanges>
				<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
				<iCommerce>1</iCommerce>
				<iCommerce>1</iCommerce>
			</TradeRouteYieldChanges>
which is not right, assuming standard ordering these ought to be food, production and commerce.

I changed these to be
Code: 
			<TradeRouteYieldChanges>
				<iCommerce>1</iCommerce>
				<iCommerce>1</iCommerce>
				<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
			</TradeRouteYieldChanges>
and ran the last autosave. The results are a bit odd:

The systems do now have one more food than is provided by the planets, so this is fixed by this change.

The systems now have two more production than is provided by the planets, rather than 1 like they were (correctly) getting before.

(I hadn't noticed if they were getting extra commerce before - I would guess that they were, but I don't know if it was 1 per trade route.)

Then I ran a few more turns so that one of the systems grew to 2 population and the result was the same: 1 extra food, 2 extra production. A couple turns later the other went to 2 population with the same result.

By the way, it seems to me that these tags should be iYield rather than iCommerce.
 
thanks for the input, god-emp. no offense tho, but i seem to be counting the correct numbers in my saved games...

anyway, i searched for the xml file and made the changes you did. but i don't seem to see any changes after loading a game before finishing the warp lane, then ending the turn. trade routes show up, but no change in the count. do i need to start from a fresh game to see the effect?

SIDE NOTE: should the warp lanes at least be semi-visible even when not in line-of-sight (outside of influence/culture border)? just like roads in regular civ, it would help to at least know which cities i've already connected to my road network. of course, as with normal FOW, if a pirate/barb or enemy destroyed the road outside of my borders, the only way for me to know is if i sent a unit out there to see the change (or indirectly, if i notice a trade route is cut off).
 
I have rarely, if ever, seen the pirates trash a warp lane that wasn't inside your cultural borders. I think it's because they use them to speed along in their efforts to rob and pillage you and stuff. Annoying when you're trying to extend to that resource patch, but I assume that's the point. :p
 
Tssha said:
I have rarely, if ever, seen the pirates trash a warp lane that wasn't inside your cultural borders. I think it's because they use them to speed along in their efforts to rob and pillage you and stuff. Annoying when you're trying to extend to that resource patch, but I assume that's the point. :p
Click to expand...

yes, but i'm saying that the change in the map should only be visible to you after you've seen it for yourself. in the meantime, the lane should still be "faded-out-but-visible", as if it still existed, when outside of your normal line of sight. i'm just suggesting to have the road visually act in the same way as regular civ.
 
tai4ji2x said:
right, that's what i had assumed would be the case as well. but it doesn't seem to work. i've tried adding to unsettled and already-settled stars, with no luck on either. the resource shows up on the tile, but none of the planets say it "provides [so and so resource...] when i move my cursor over it, and the appropriate building never shows up as an option in the build menu, no matter which planet i choose to build on. i've tried with cotton, wine, grain, seafood, cattle, etc. still no luck.
Click to expand...

I've fixed this now- it will be fixed in the next patch (probably end up being the next version, not the next patch, though- there might not be another patch before 1.7).

tai4ji2x said:
SIDE NOTE: should the warp lanes at least be semi-visible even when not in line-of-sight (outside of influence/culture border)? just like roads in regular civ, it would help to at least know which cities i've already connected to my road network. of course, as with normal FOW, if a pirate/barb or enemy destroyed the road outside of my borders, the only way for me to know is if i sent a unit out there to see the change (or indirectly, if i notice a trade route is cut off).
Click to expand...

Indeed, I don't think I've ever seen the Pirates attack the routes outside of your borders. What they're more likely to do is attack the routes either inside your starbase's culture or inside your solar systems' culture.

I don't see any reason why routes should be visible when they're outside of your territory, since they wouldn't be visible this way in regular civ. Also, there's no easy way to implement it, as the game does not keep track of who built which route.

God-Emperor said:
Uh-oh. Looks like a bug (or two).

I just did a quick test as the Red Syndicate (world builder in a colony ship, some defenders, and some rapid construction ships into a new game, then founded a colony and connected it to the home system) and in both population 1 star systems with 1 trade route...

1) the extra food and production are not listed in the trade route yields in that part of the city screen (I don't think they ever were in regular FF, but they should be)

2) the 1 extra food is not being applied, all of the food can be accounted for as coming from the planet

3) I see one extra :hammers: beyond what the one population on the planet is giving, so that is presumably coming from the trade route

So I check the CIV4TraitInfos.xml file for the definition of TRAIT_SYNDICATE nad it turns out that it has this:
Code: 
			<TradeRouteYieldChanges>
				<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
				<iCommerce>1</iCommerce>
				<iCommerce>1</iCommerce>
			</TradeRouteYieldChanges>
which is not right, assuming standard ordering these ought to be food, production and commerce.

I changed these to be
Code: 
			<TradeRouteYieldChanges>
				<iCommerce>1</iCommerce>
				<iCommerce>1</iCommerce>
				<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
			</TradeRouteYieldChanges>
and ran the last autosave. The results are a bit odd:

The systems do now have one more food than is provided by the planets, so this is fixed by this change.

The systems now have two more production than is provided by the planets, rather than 1 like they were (correctly) getting before.

(I hadn't noticed if they were getting extra commerce before - I would guess that they were, but I don't know if it was 1 per trade route.)

Then I ran a few more turns so that one of the systems grew to 2 population and the result was the same: 1 extra food, 2 extra production. A couple turns later the other went to 2 population with the same result.

By the way, it seems to me that these tags should be iYield rather than iCommerce.
Click to expand...

The tags should need to be iYield (they're declared as such in the schema). I'm not sure why the file even loads at all the way it's written.

But this all points to some kind of kind of problem with the way the yield overrides in the DLL are being calculated.

If you want to do some more testing you can add some print statements to updatePlotYield and print out the values of aiSystemYield[0], aiSystemYield[1], and aiSystemYield[2] after the overrides are retrieved.

I'll look into it in the DLL end of things too.
 
TC01 said:
I don't see any reason why routes should be visible when they're outside of your territory, since they wouldn't be visible this way in regular civ. Also, there's no easy way to implement it, as the game does not keep track of who built which route.
Click to expand...

weekend is over for me, so no time to check, but i could've sworn that in vanilla civ, a road in neutral territory would be mapped simply as a changeable terrain feature, and not player-specific. ie, your player's "map" would show a road there for as long as it is the most recent view of that tile *from the point of view of your civ*...
 
Well, I took a look at the DLL and I think I may have solved the yield problem.

I was using one variable- iYield- to track all three yields, and I wasn't resetting it after each use. So production would start off equal to food, and commerce would start off equal to production.

This probably explains not only this, but why the Forge trait is taking away one food, one production, and one commerce from each city when it is only supposed to take away one food.

Will be fixed in the next patch/release.
 
My feeling about this is similar to that of the original FF - that it's engrossing and fun enough for you to suspend disbelief with inherent problems of playing a space-based game on the Civ interface. The updates are well-done and add a lot of depth. Wormholes are especially cool. Still, though, it seems like there are some AI problems that, if fixed, could make it even better. For one, I have never (in either original FF or FF Plus) seen the AI build carriers! Most of the wars I fight have involved the AI sending stacks of destroyers and battleships with little or no fighter cover, where it's just a matter of whittling them down with bombers from carriers. Anyone else notice this?
 
Sine Nomen said:
My feeling about this is similar to that of the original FF - that it's engrossing and fun enough for you to suspend disbelief with inherent problems of playing a space-based game on the Civ interface. The updates are well-done and add a lot of depth. Wormholes are especially cool. Still, though, it seems like there are some AI problems that, if fixed, could make it even better. For one, I have never (in either original FF or FF Plus) seen the AI build carriers! Most of the wars I fight have involved the AI sending stacks of destroyers and battleships with little or no fighter cover, where it's just a matter of whittling them down with bombers from carriers. Anyone else notice this?
Click to expand...

Yes, it's a well-known problem.

The problem is that the AI can't handle land units being carriers. It's programmed not to let it happen. (It's similar to the also well-known problem of the AI not being able to transport ships). And because in Final Frontier, the Space terrain is in fact "land" (it's Tundra, reskinned), so the AI won't use carriers. And there's no easy fix. It would involve reprogramming the AI to understand how to use land units as carriers.
 
The_J said:
Would changing the terrain to "water" distort so many things?
Click to expand...

Maybe, maybe not.

All units would need to be changed to be water units, of course.

Cities would need to be built on water, this would require some DLL changes to get working properly.

I don't know if there would be anything else- some other problems might arise, I suppose.
 
hey guys,

i have a dll code that have a working awesome all terrain transport...its being used in dune wars for a long time - its tested and the ai knows how to use it - so with this you can set a transport to be sea/land and it will transport units all over.

i have the code merged with bbai bug 101 if anyone wishes to use it - pm me.
 
Changing the AIs for all the units to water AIs is probably a problem since the sea type AIs are more primitive and there are some land AI types that have no sea equivalent (there is no UNITAI_CITY_DEFENSE equivalent, for example). The question would be how well land AIs work when the land domain units are allowed to move on water. I suspect that it isn't much better than how the water AIs work (or not) on land.

It would be nice if simply removing the "are we on the water" checks from the UNITAI_MISSILE_CARRIER_SEA and UNITAI_CARRIER_SEA would solve the "never loads missiles or squadrons" problem, but it is probably more complicated than that. On the other hand, it ought to be quite a bit easier than making a land based transport AI since many of the complicating factors just don't exists - missiles and squadrons can't walk their way across the map on their own, they can only be based in cities and on units that can carry them.
 
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