New NESes, ideas, development, etc

Symphony D:
Those points are probably right, but it will increase the intelligence of those making the military descisions. Also, what about the possibility of robots fighting wars, especially in the air, without humans?
 
Those points are probably right, but it will increase the intelligence of those making the military descisions.
That is not necessarily true by any standards whatsoever.

Also, what about the possibility of robots fighting wars, especially in the air, without humans?
Already listed drones.
 
No, because it's the only thing which is definitively a Gunship. All instances of helicopters which have been called that roll back comfortably to Attack Helicopters, and nothing else using the title that is not a boat exists.
My point was, why have the unit classification at all? It seems slightly inconsistent not to differentiate between "screening" E-war aircraft and the AWACS, but then to introduce a one-unit class.
Symphony D. said:
Doesn't work that way. They either have to be separate unit types or it can be reduced to second order distinction as a design feature. Machines are relatively little impacted by quality compared to infantry, given the cost of training a crew is often vastly less than the cost of the machine and, when crew skill levels are roughly similar, the machine will decide the outcome.
My impression was that the two unit types - "Raven" and "Prowler" on the one side (perhaps including the varieties of Wild Weasel here), and "Mainstay", "Hawkeye", and "Sentry" on the other - perform fundamentally different missions. An AWACS isn't used to blind the enemy's radar, it's for showing your planes where to shoot, and is more of an "offensive" tool; the EF-111 and the EA-6B are more for preventing the enemy from seeing where you are and is thus more "defensive". (Yes, they can be used for other means; an AWACS is good for vectoring your aircraft at "holes" in your air defense system where enemy fighters are penetrating, and the Raven could blind enemy radar in preparation for an attack. But the AWACS is still helping your aircraft attack enemy ones, and the Raven is preventing the enemy from doing the same. No change in fundamental role.) It's partially moot now since you changed the classification anyway to allow more differentiation within the unit class, but still something to consider.

As to the other units...now that I'm finally on long enough to both read and comment on the listing...in the "Spaceship/Spacecraft" category, could one add "armed freighter"? There was a significant effort, pre-First World War, at arming merchant vessels and even passenger liners, such that the Germans in particular would be able to use them to raid Allied commerce; this wasn't particularly effective, but that was mostly due to poor utilization of the resources at hand and the overwhelming Royal Navy, Royale, and Japanese response. A few of them served very effectively on Lake Tanganyika for awhile IIRC. Sci-fi equivalents are vessels like the Millennium Falcon, Outrider, and Lady Luck, which served more in a military than a commercial capacity anyway, or vessels like the Suprosa, which did a respectable job of fending off a starfighter squadron.

I have some queasiness about making a "cruiser tank" a separate class as well, mostly due to the fact that it was rather short-lived, but since it's an interesting operation concept if nothing else (and if better used by players than in RL could provide a concrete benefit more in proportion with Liddell Hart's original idea) it's probably okay.

What is meant by "mobile gun system"? Is that AAA or regular artillery, or some kind of AT, or what? And ought there be significant differentiation between "mechanized artillery" and "SP artillery"? Seems like they're close enough to me.

Should "railway artillery" be a dead end? I think that it could be upgraded to "train-borne nuclear missile" or some such. :p The Soviets had a fair number of these IIRC, and they would be a pain to find and kill.

I'm not sure that the E-boat and the torpedo boat need be confined to "brown water". Or is that just a compromise solution, since they can't really travel on the high seas yet aren't suitable for river combat (and coastal combat isn't really in the cards either)?

Should there be differentiation between modern, steam powered corvettes and the sail version? :p
This is 1946, Dachs. It should. ;)
But in 1923 it shouldn't.
Thanks. The magic of being unspecific. Also, Spanish Morocco seems a bit small; IIRC it should extend further east along the Mediterranean coast.

If you're going to do intra-colony borders, then this could help.
You want something just small enough to land on a planet, just big enough to carry a Company sized unit, and well-protected enough to enter hot LZs.
So we're looking for something like the Sentinel-class or Bantha-class landers? :p
Symphony D. said:
My intention is to force players to group units into military structures themselves, and keep track of their own organization, and then have them command those groups (be they Brigades, Regiments, Divisions, Corps, Armies, Army Groups, whatever) around in their orders, as I suggested in the staznesX thread. So in effect it's about the same thing as what you're suggesting. I am striving to get a "best of all worlds" package established.
Hey, I do this obsessively anyway (to which das and a few other mods can attest), so no problems there.
 
My point was, why have the unit classification at all? It seems slightly inconsistent not to differentiate between "screening" E-war aircraft and the AWACS, but then to introduce a one-unit class.
There's been more than the AC-130, and there will be in the future; the fact that only one military deploys gunships in our reality has no bearing on others.

I also put them broken by / to kind of designate that I wasn't sure what to do with them. Your argument also ignores C&C capabilities like JSTARs, so realistically it should actually be three units.

As to the other units...now that I'm finally on long enough to both read and comment on the listing...in the "Spaceship/Spacecraft" category, could one add "armed freighter"?
Good theory, but they're also Freighters--ie: outside of government control. By that token I should include armed naval freighters too. Should I include semi-trucks and passenger trains? If it isn't explicitly military, it doesn't make the cut I think.

A space freighter is also at disadvantages compared to military vessels that dwarf those of its seaborne ancestors, though one can argue for mitigating circumstances.

I have some queasiness about making a "cruiser tank" a separate class as well, mostly due to the fact that it was rather short-lived, but since it's an interesting operation concept if nothing else (and if better used by players than in RL could provide a concrete benefit more in proportion with Liddell Hart's original idea) it's probably okay.
But not the Infantry Tank? They are more or less natural ideas for any Army to arrive at in attempting to fulfill the niches of the battlefield; ideas that will more or less invariably become obsolete, but which will arise anyway, and may be somewhat useful for a time.

What is meant by "mobile gun system"? Is that AAA or regular artillery, or some kind of AT, or what? And ought there be significant differentiation between "mechanized artillery" and "SP artillery"? Seems like they're close enough to me.
Mobile Gun System. An AFV that is neither tank nor IFV, but somewhere in between. It's not a Light Tank, and it represents a different (but similar) sort of mission role and strategic thinking; you don't need heavy armor for low-intensity fights, and their deployment is cumbersome, although their firepower is useful. If you're not planning on fighting enemy armor, you can just take the gun, and leave your own armor behind.

Also, it's motorized, which is to say hauled--rather distinct from self-propelled. You need a Cargo Truck or a Transport Helicopter along with it to move it easily in the first instance.

Should "railway artillery" be a dead end? I think that it could be upgraded to "train-borne nuclear missile" or some such. :p The Soviets had a fair number of these IIRC, and they would be a pain to find and kill.
Technically those are Armored Trains. Eventually every ICBM becomes obsolete, but I guess it might carry on as a final deterrent even after first and second generation space weaponry and ASat weapons go up for saturation attacks. Beyond that it doesn't really persist though--I suppose the same argument could be made of Boomers.

That does raise a point that Ballistic Missiles should be tallied as units, though. Nuclear stockpiles too.

I'm not sure that the E-boat and the torpedo boat need be confined to "brown water". Or is that just a compromise solution, since they can't really travel on the high seas yet aren't suitable for river combat (and coastal combat isn't really in the cards either)?
More a compromise.

Should there be differentiation between modern, steam powered corvettes and the sail version? :p
You could make the same argument about Frigates. However, you then have to work out some way of distinguishing them. I guess just adding "Classical" works.

So we're looking for something like the Sentinel-class or Bantha-class landers? :p
Bigger. 20m isn't even an atmospheric fighter.
 
Good theory, but they're also Freighters--ie: outside of government control. By that token I should include armed naval freighters too. Should I include semi-trucks and passenger trains? If it isn't explicitly military, it doesn't make the cut I think.
Before the First World War, the German government formed a military command and paid for the augmentation of some freighters and passenger liners to coordinate their action in time of war. The captains were mostly (if not all; should go back and look for that book) naval reservists with prior naval command experience, so they were pretty much ready to go when the war actually started. They drew off a devil of a lot of Allied naval resources for wartime 1914 and early 1915 (unfortunately that fool von Ingenohl didn't sally, missing the High Seas Fleet's best odds for victory since...ever) and thus had an impact on the conduct of the war, and they were militarily coordinated (even if it was rather poorly due to the limited German naval controls placed on them and the general timidity of the German Navy high command). And, in a sci-fi example, the formation of the Smuggler's Alliance after the Thrawn campaign allowed the New Republic to call on a concrete number of armed freighters for limited assistance, as at Kessel during the destruction of the Death Star prototype, as well as during Operation Shadow Hand. (The primary function of the Smuggler's Alliance was one of intelligence and, after the Gavrisom-Pellaeon Treaty, liaison, but they still made a military commitment, especially early on.)
Symphony D. said:
But not the Infantry Tank? They are more or less natural ideas for any Army to arrive at in attempting to fulfill the niches of the battlefield; ideas that will more or less invariably become obsolete, but which will arise anyway, and may be somewhat useful for a time.
Yeah, I guess you're right.
Symphony D. said:
Bigger. 20m isn't even an atmospheric fighter.
I was thinking more in terms of carrying capacity in terms of troop numbers; perhaps a CR-25 or Jadthu analog would work better, at triple the length?

With respect to supply units; should stuff like the Civil Reserve Air Fleet and Aeroflot (during the Soviet Union) be included in the lift capacity or made separate...or be put in parentheses, something like that?
 
Before the First World War, the German government formed a military command and paid for the augmentation of some freighters and passenger liners to coordinate their action in time of war. [... - Star Wars fanboyism :p]
Falls under civilian requisition as per later. Also, I just flat don't buy civilian liners competing realistically with hardcore military ships in space. The disparity in technology between the two is going to be huge: a civilian craft might pack some Masers of UV lasers while a military craft is eventually going to be packing smart drones, nukes, antimatter, and stuff like gamma ray lasers. It's not going to have anywhere near the level of defensive technology either. The civilian ship doesn't have a chance in hell realistically, and is just basically there as cannon-fodder if anything. Equipping it with the kind of weapons that can make a difference will take excessive retrofitting likely better spent on just plain building dedicated warships. You might see armaments there to combat piracy, or to sideline as mercenaries, but the idea of a freighter taking down a warship is more or less bunk from where I stand, given a realistic interpretation and distribution of space armaments.

I was thinking more in terms of carrying capacity in terms of troop numbers; perhaps a CR-25 or Jadthu analog would work better, at triple the length?
I wasn't aware you could fit 200 fully equipped soldiers or 16 main battle tanks into a 20m or even 60m long space. :p

With respect to supply units; should stuff like the Civil Reserve Air Fleet and Aeroflot (during the Soviet Union) be included in the lift capacity or made separate...or be put in parentheses, something like that?
I'm inclined to say no because I believe this is getting ridiculous as it is already, and that things like that can be considered as simply appropriating civilian vehicles.
 
I'd be in either way.
 
Retroactive deletion.
 
Hrm, that's a good one.
 
Humanitarian, and Urban Pacification/Policing? (The latter being different from Specialisation:Urban in its for long term interaction with the occupied populace rather than just fighting there, though a sensible training scheme would bundle the two ;)).
 
A most underwhelming response, Symphony D. :lol:

I was just thinking whether stealth stuff merit their own categories in the unit listing, "Stealth" being a "special," or just not listing stealth because it can be given that in a sufficiently advanced system stealth should be the rule rather than the exception (I'm not too sure about this, but I feel if economically viable, stealth should be built into everything and anything you reasonably could give it to--but then, in situations like this time in OTL, not everyone can afford stealth).
 
Humanitarian, and Urban Pacification/Policing?
Humanitarian? WTF? :p People are totally going to pick that one, yeah! "Urban Pacification" is, where I come from (in AMERICA) a euphemism for carpet bombing people. I will get around to why I don't like Policing in a moment.

Specialisation:Urban
... Try speaking American! My list, my spelling!

though a sensible training scheme would bundle the two ;)).
True, yet nobody ever does. The idea of separating occupational forces from combat forces is something that no army has yet ever done, and is something that probably won't be done for some time yet, if ever. Pretty much all of them remain universally bad at it (with maybe a possible exception of the IDF, and their reaction is less talking with people and more blowing poopoo up). I would be highly adverse to just including the ability from the start in light of such a fact.

A most underwhelming response, Symphony D. :lol:
I was agreeing with it, for the reasons you described. As shown by modern equipment it won't necessarily be integrated for some 20 to 30 years after its appearance if even then, and there are still varying methods of executing it. It would probably become "standard" at some point but until then it's very much an add-on.
 
Engineer
Night Fighter
Reconnaissance
Could these be added as vehicle specializations? "Engineer" might be iffy but here I'm referring to tanks with mine rollers or some such. That one's probably not legit at all, on second thought. Just throwing it out there. "Reconnaissance" justification is stuff like the Mosquito or other aircraft that weren't originally recon vehicles but which were augmented to have such an ability.
Symphony D. said:
How is that added to anything? Is that just going to be a built-in thing?
 
True, yet nobody ever does. The idea of separating occupational forces from combat forces is something that no army has yet ever done, and is something that probably won't be done for some time yet, if ever. Pretty much all of them remain universally bad at it (with maybe a possible exception of the IDF, and their reaction is less talking with people and more blowing poopoo up). I would be highly adverse to just including the ability from the start in light of such a fact.

Gendarmerie don't count?
 
[...] tanks with mine rollers [...] Mosquito or other aircraft [...]
Night fighters are only special for a very limited period of time (like a single unit). Recon and Engineering could.

How is that added to anything? Is that just going to be a built-in thing?
STOVL is something that you kind of have to build in specifically to get it that is not necessary for a plane's operation, yes.

Not in my opinion. Gendarmerie are internal security forces in effect, and lets face it, if you're reduced to them, you're kind of screwed. I'm not aware of terribly many instances of them being deployed elsewhere to do police work. In effect, they're police under military command--that still makes them police, in my opinion. Should we also include Military Police for the other services to keep morale and cohesion up? There is a limit to how far this listing can realistically go.
 
What resources do yall think would be available in North America 700 years after modern civilization collapses. (assume no widespread destruction, please)

acutally, make it stuff a predinustrial society would use.

I already have stuff like:

Gold, Iron, Grapes, Apples, Wood, Cotton, Bamboo, Horses, and Hard Wood.
 
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