Sea Trade Routes

Hello Fellow Die Hard Civ 5 Fans:

I don't know if I am asking a question or asking do others get into this situation? I am playing Darius on continents. Huge Maps. 9 other civs. The other AI Civ on my continent was Portugal. As AD time started I took out Lisbon and took out there other city which I razed. I kept Lisbon. Since that time all other AI Civs Denounced me through the entire game. Once it ends they do it again. Any ideas on stopping this? is one question tied into what I am trying to get to.

Now even in the Industrial Age....I have only been able to trade with CS. I have 9 cargo ships and no other Civ wants to trade with me. Only CS. I am getting on average about 20-22 gold per turn from each CS. Is this good or bad to just have trade with CS.

I wanted to go out and win with Culture. I currently have 160 Tourism points and have hotels in all cities and radar towers. The other other civs are buying up my Levi Jeans and rocking out to my Pop Culture Music. But they don't want to trade. So with Spain insisting on settling on my continent along with a few others...I decided to take them out. I know that did not help things but they would not listen to don't settle so close to me...they would respond with not a chance.

So I have 4-5 civs left in the game and thinking well Culture is not going to win it so I must take out the remaining capitols and call it the end.

How many of you guys change the way you win half way into the game. I wanted open boarders and have my Culture flourish and trade but they all said...I don't think so.

Again don't know if this a rant or a question. Mods please remove this if needed.

Thanks

Brew God

1. Simply put, don't conquer Cities (or worse Capitols) if you are worried about Diplomacy Penalties.

2. Once you are seen Internationally as a Warmonger, Trade (and therefore Gold and Happiness) can dry up very quickly, see #1.

In some games I resort to Domination due to my own poor Diplomatic Choices over the course of a game. In Cultural Victory Games, sometimes I take out the leading Culture Civ and realize that the game will be over faster if I just keep the War Train rolling on a Warmonger Victory Lap

DarkestOnion said:

1. Simply put, don't conquer Cities (or worse Capitols) if you are worried about Diplomacy Penalties.

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#1 AIs don't care if its the capital for war monger, they instead care how many cities remaining that AI has. (Extreme penalty if that was their last city, half as bad if they have one remaining in BNW [In G&K they wouldn't care at all for the second case]) So when on offense, skip the AIs junk cities and go directly for their core.

The only things that stop you from sending a trade route to a civ are an embargo in the World Congress, being at war with that civ, or simply being out of range. Since you're on huge continents, range is very likely the problem. Not much you can do other than wait until you've researched refrigeration (+10 range to cargo ships) and check if you can trade then. Harbors increase the range by quite a bit too (+50%) but I'm guessing you've already built those by the Industrial Era. Hostile AI can definitely still be traded with though assuming there's nothing else preventing it.

The AI can't stop you from setting up trade routes with them through Caravans and Cargo Ships. That's completely separate from the negotiated trades, like for resources, votes, Embassy's, etc. They only block trade when you're at war, and if you start a war in the middle of a trade route, that vessel will get destroyed. Think of it like the negotiated trades being between the governments, and the Caravans/Cargo Ships being between private businesses and you're just collecting taxes.

I think it's probably a range problem that you're having (unless the World Congress passed a provision to Embargo you). If it is, the fact that you wipe out your neighbors is probably your problem. You can't trade halfway across the world without late game techs and/or the right wonders.

Thanks for all the great info. I am still playing the current game since last weekend. I will make sure my cities have harbors and get the Fridge tech to boost my distance.

Brew God

Internal Sea Trade Roots (Food with Granary or Production with Workshop) are often better than External Sea Trade Roots.

OldEarthRelic said:

Internal Sea Trade Roots (Food with Granary or Production with Workshop) are often better than External Sea Trade Roots.

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That is true on "lower" difficulties, however on Immortal/Deity, external trade routes get a lot better because the AI is so far ahead in tech at the start that it will give you tons of beakers until the medieval era at least, making internal trade routes more situational in the early games (still good, but not automatic like they are on lower difficulties).

OldEarthRelic said:

Internal Sea Trade Roots (Food with Granary or Production with Workshop) are often better than External Sea Trade Roots.

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Why? In the modern age i can easily get 30+ gold on every sea trade route (not even playing as portugal). Meanwhile a internal sea route would only give me 10 food (useless if your cities are already large enough) and 10 production (That doesnt get multiplied by any bonuses). Trade route income does get multiplied by bonuses however, and with commerce and other gold bonuses, hitting 50+ gold per route is really easy.

That allows you to easily insta-purchase any non-wonder while that extra 10 production isnt going to help much.

Remember that it's a long game -- what may be an optimal use of cargo ships in the early Renaissance won't necessarily be optimal in the late Atomic.

FWIW, I find there are very few "always" or "nevers" in this game.

You're perceived as a major warmonger, would you send a trade route to someone who might DOW you? You still get gold from internal trade routes, although not as much, and there is always CS.

Early war without allies is very costly, and you have to weigh up the pros and cons. Sometimes you must especially if a known warmonger has just forward settled you. In fact this has happened in my last game where I had Eldorado to the right(free settler) and KSM to the left. The only problem Japan had plonked a city 5 tiles from my KSM city. After razing that city there seemed no place for a 4th city(had I scouted better I could've had GBR) so I took Kyoto. After that no trade and my penalty was ~30turns of unhappiness which meant no growth.

In your case I think Maria wouldn't have posed a threat and thus no benefit could've been gotten from capturing Lisbon(unless there were some nice juicy wonders).

phillipwyllie said:

You still get gold from internal trade routes, ).

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This does not fit my experience (and I use internal trade routes often). Please can you discuss when you have seen this.

Thanks,

He may be referring to old-style trade routes, now called city connections.