England the new best Civ?

this is all much ado about nothing.

Longbows are only special because you start with Range, letting you get to Logistics and Indirect fire faster (by 1 level 4 promotion, specifically).

In vanilla, they sucked for upgrades, so no one did it. Now they upgrade properly, but won't keep the 3 range, it'll just be 2 range. Oh noes... it's not like anyone else can't take that promotion... or build horse units or tanks...

... or fighters/bombers.

nationstate said:

The promotions for the Jaguar and Polynesian Maori Warrior last the whole game up through Mechanized Infantry.

Click to expand...

Am I the only one who finds the idea of Mechanized Infantry with a war dance hilarious?

really this is silly since any civ can build ranged units, and any ranged unit can have the +1 range promotion. cho ku's could get the +1 range promotion quite quickly and the long bowmen could get logistics quite quickly... you could have a handful of archers from any civ with these promotions because the promotions are not "unique". I've had archers with both logistics and the +1 ranged promotion. I've also had a few of these archers with scouting promotions as well. Imagine it with scouting II (+1 movement) while playing America, meaning u would have +2 sight. I've scratched my head about the mobility promotion, which is listed as ranged but only seems available to naval units... imagine a ranged unit that had 4 movement, could shoot multiple times, and had no penalty due to terrain.

So no, England is not OP

Each unit that has a special ability comes with that ability in the form of a promotion. If that promotion doesn't already exist, such as the Longbow's extra range or the Samurai's Shock I, then the promotion symbol is that of an upward pointing triangle. One of the reasons I love the Ottomans is that their upgraded Janissaries keep both of their bonuses (as two separate promotions) upon upgrade, which is hilarious.

Of course, pure statistical increases to Unit Strength or movement are not coded as promotions, so that units such as the aforementioned Musketeer do not become stronger as Riflemen. Interestingly, the Roman Legion is an oddity to this rule - their ability to build roads and forts is part of being a Legion, and not an upgrade they keep. I'm not sure about Mandekalu Cavalry, but I think that their +10% (or is it -10%?) replaces the usual horse downgrade, as well as replacing the subsequent Cavalry downgrade.

For those advocating taking away the Longbow's range promotion for Gatling and Machine Guns, two big questions:
1) How is this fair when all other civilizations with powers get to keep their bonuses post-upgrade?
2) If you believe that all units should lose their upgrades on promotion, how does this interact with the Samurai, who gain Shock I as a bonus upgrade?

I'm happy for the English and Chinese to keep their range on later era units. It's part of playing those Civs that they have that power.

I'm still wondering about where the rumours of England losing their extra spy are coming from. Where did it originate?

What if they change lbow's ability so that it doesn't become too OP when upgraded.

Babri said:

What if they change lbow's ability so that it doesn't become too OP when upgraded.

Click to expand...

How? Change it to +0.5 range ? or turn it to something completely different?

Again why should they start with longbows and we don't even know yet how combat will work. We are assuming still a lot how powerful Machine Guns/Gattling Guns will be relative to other units... and its too early to assume.

Besides no one is calling for a nerf to Mechanized Infantry who full heal with every kill (Janissary Upgrade), no one is calling for a nerf to Cho Ko Nuhs who will get 2 attacks without the combat strength penalty they had when they upgrade, No one is complaining about cross upgrades in team games in multi (I.E. Jaguar upgrading to a Legion), etc.

Any unit with a promotion gets to keep it. Things where it's just a stronger unit (example, Hoplite) don't get to keep it. But benefits transfer.

Click to expand...

I just want to point out on this vein of the conversation that there Has been a change to this in the past.

Trebuchets extra City attack promotion used to carry on to cannon->arty->rocket arty and that was patched out.

So it is certainly possible that the range may not carry over, however I'm not optimistic that it would be noticed in testing even if they didnt intend it to carry over it may still slip in lol.

edit: In checking the pedia it appears that for the Treb they simply changed it from a promotion to a Unit attribute where as the longbows range is still the normal ranged promo. It seems to me they would then be forced to strip the ranged promo from all composite bows upon upgrade to gattlings or else anyone can get range 2 gats/MG, english just get it easier.

If you made the longbows range a unit attribute instead of the promo then you'd have to make sure it didnt stack with the regular ranged promo.

I dunno, anything is possible.. seems most likely to me at this point they will leave it as it is and allow 2ranged gats/mg for anyone that levels up their archers/xbws/compbows Or strip ranged promo upon upgrade to gats

I'm also curious about where people have heard that England is losing it's extra spy. That would be a shame.

There's also something else to consider: There might be an upgrade after Machine Gun into something else.

But as MadDjinn mentions, its not that big of an ordeal. Anyone can pick up the Range promotion regardless of civilization. English only get it for free with their UU.

KillingMeSoftly said:

I'm also curious about where people have heard that England is losing it's extra spy. That would be a shame.

Click to expand...

This. Any source on this claim? I haven't heard anything about them losing their extra spy.

Stormbolt said:

This. Any source on this claim? I haven't heard anything about them losing their extra spy.

Click to expand...

It was mentioned in one of the more recent previews, I think.

I don't think it is necessarily confirmed at this point; it didn't even mention England by name, although that is the logical assumption, since they had been known to have it previously.

Louis XXIV said:

It's currently a promotion. They'd have to change the Longbow to prevent it from staying with the unit after promotion.

Click to expand...

Yes, and this is what they will do HIMO.

Interesting about the Spy, would suggest that Firaxis agreed England was getting too good.

I'm not sure why people are suddenly saying that the longbow should lose its range on upgrade, that does seem a little unfair. It will simply make England very powerful. As has been pointed out, it is hard to know exactly how good this will be until we can play around with it.

I'm surprised nobody is talking about their advantage in Naval warfare. Even in Pangea, there are always a good number of coastal cities. Unless you have a huge naval defence, there seems to be little you can do to stop England quickly flanking you can capturing (or damaging for a land assault) coastal cities. Also, as all units can defend while embark, the English tactic of moving land units by sea in order to triple/quadruple their movement becomes even more feasible.

glaivemaster said:

For those advocating taking away the Longbow's range promotion for Gatling and Machine Guns, two big questions:
1) How is this fair when all other civilizations with powers get to keep their bonuses post-upgrade?

Click to expand...

Nobody should be able to carry their UU’s ability trough upgrading trough out the game. After all, it is supposed to be a unique unit.

glaivemaster said:

2) If you believe that all units should lose their upgrades on promotion, how does this interact with the Samurai, who gain Shock I as a bonus upgrade?

Click to expand...

If loosing the unique ability trough upgrading causes problems with one particular unit, then just change that units ability to suit this system better.

I mostly play my games with either England, Spain or Rome and none of those civs get to carry their UU’s ability through upgrading (at least I have not noticed any), so that’s why I basicly had no idea that some other civs has this kind of powerful loophole to use. Anyway, how is it a “unique unit” if all the other units that upgrade from that particular unit gets to keep that same god dam ability? That’s a stupid loophole in design right there and it shouldnt never even existed.

aziantuntija said:

I mostly play my games with either England, Spain or Rome and none of those civs get to carry their UU’s ability through upgrading (at least I have not noticed any), so that’s why I basicly had no idea that some other civs has this kind of powerful loophole to use. Anyway, how is it a “unique unit” if all the other units that upgrade from that particular unit gets to keep that same god dam ability? That’s a stupid loophole in design right there and it shouldnt never even existed.

Click to expand...

Spanish Tercio keep their +100% against mounted units promotion when upgrading. They make very nice Riflemen, especially against Cossacks.

I think that UUs should keep their promotions when upgrading. It just builds flavor and lets you craft unique strategies. I can't see what is wrong with that - that's what they're for, to evoke a spirit of a civ, at least in one field.

janboruta said:

Spanish Tercio keep their +100% against mounted units promotion when upgrading. They make very nice Riflemen, especially against Cossacks.

I think that UUs should keep their promotions when upgrading. It just builds flavor and lets you craft unique strategies. I can't see what is wrong with that - that's what they're for, to evoke a spirit of a civ, at least in one field.

Click to expand...

First of all, its unfair that some civs may keep their unique ability and others dont. It also requires a ton of balancing between early UU's and more late UU's, to tell you the truth I really dont see this massive balancing taking place in Firaxis's design.

If there are UU's that are better than other UU's and they get to keep that more powerful ability for more than half of the game (or worse some civs loose their unique ability all together), then it only makes the game more imbalance. Somebody might argue that it is actually great to have this kind of loopholes to achive superunits but it really, really does not change the fact that it just makes the game more imbalance.

tofofnts said:

Am I the only one who finds the idea of Mechanized Infantry with a war dance hilarious?

Click to expand...

You know what's even more hilarious? Picturing the Mechanized Infantry on the other side of battle cowering in fear.

aziantuntija said:

I mostly play my games with either England, Spain or Rome and none of those civs get to carry their UU’s ability through upgrading (at least I have not noticed any)

Click to expand...

And conquistadores keep all their special promotions (extra sight and defensive embarkment).

Most UUs with special promotions are reasonably well balanced between them, and when they aren't, it's because the civ has shortcomings somewhere else. For example, janissaries are the best "special promotion UU" by a wide margin, but Ottomans have two awkard UUs (musketmen and lancers, which must be built from scratch), and a below par UA.

The only UU which may be kinda weak are the hardcoded ones, because the window of opportunity to use them is short, and the extra strength may not be that noticeable. The worst cases are Rome and Greece, yet with the right conditions they can do quite a lot of damage in the early game.

Draskar said:

Yes, and this is what they will do HIMO.

Click to expand...

Of course, if they do that, you can get the +1 range promotion and have range 4 Longbowmen.

Also, it doesn't address China which almost certainly has to be a promotion.