Piety is now Ancient - still very weak.

I just watched MJ's video explaining policies too.

It is really good that Piety is ancient - the opener is also very good, and the second policy with +1faith is also good early.

The other ones looks bad hovever, I can imaginge picking Piety for a first policy ever.

Maybe picking the first one mixng with tradition, with Maya or Egyipt.

Honor also not appealing at all for a first policy. Is it good in multiplayer?

Piety finisher now gives you free GP, i wouldn't call something like this weak.

camfrlas said:

Piety finisher now gives you free GP, i wouldn't call something like this weak.

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Not to mention Reformation beliefs, which are very powerful.

stealth_nsk said:

Not to mention Reformation beliefs, which are very powerful.

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And depending on how you play, picking the first religion and spreading it before other civilizations do - which Piety will help with - might be important for your strategy. Switching Piety to Ancient means you can start on that right away, rather than have to wait for some time. I think it's a game-changer for civilizations that can hope for a very early religion.

Piety is a definite pick for Byzantium that is for sure. Like others said, Reformation is worth completing the tree. I can see a case for Indonesia. Faith purchased Kris Swordsman? Sounds nice

I would say Honor have been buffed but obviously still not up to the general usefulness of tradition and Liberty. Culture is abit more scarce due to culture buildings other than the Monument giving out less culture. The Barbarian Culture kill becomes more significant along with the culture from Military Caste. Professional Army helps you get your barracks etc up faster, to get Heroic Epic at a better pace. Plus the finisher gold is nice since gold is now much harder to get. Probably not a first pick for most but there are probably situations where you might want to go Honor.

Tradition itself is slightly weakened by the fact that you cant sell lux for direct gold anymore so you cant get your 4 cities up as quickly but it is still a very powerful policy start.

Yeah, it'll turn Byzantium from "somewhat good" into "absolute powerhouse". It isn't one you'll usually pick to start with, but in the right situation it'll be lethal.

Why would it be?

What will make Science not the single best thing in the game? (still talking about single player)
For Byz, it is indeed good as they have no means of getting fast religion anyway. But they will not be a powerhouse at all.

I am not saying it will not be a 'fun' policy, but it will not be strong.
I also found reformation belifs weak (unnecesary)

In GnK it is very easy to win with no religion at all, even in deity, and if you dont get the religion as a gift (like meeting 2 Religion CS and coosing desert Pantheon for fast religion, or being ethiopian/maya) it is not worth it at all to go for religion.

Also tradition will still give you bigger cities = more prod/money/science

Well, Piety has gone from "absolute garbage" to "nice for some civs, fundamental for others" type of SP, which is definetly an improvement. I mean:

- The opener is exponentially better now that this has become an Ancient era type of SP tree, this SP tree is now a must in the initial "race for the pantheon"

- Religious tolerance is not only original and fun, but it has some serious game implications regarding the employement of inquisitors in order to keep other religions at bay rather than re-converting your own people

- Reformation SP is a must for any civilization with its own religion

- The finisher gives faith a much needed added utility for the late game, great for faith heavy type of civs (Arabia, Ethiopia, Indonesia and the Celts comes to mind)

Overall, I love the redesign that it has got much kuds to Firaxis!

PS: The Honour SP tree, however, is still a hot steaming mess in dire need of a buff or complete overhaul

Ikael said:

Well, Piety has gone from "absolute garbage" to "nice for some civs, fundamental for others" type of SP, which is definetly an improvement. I mean:

- The opener is exponentially better now that this has become an Ancient era type of SP tree, this SP tree is now a must in the initial "race for the pantheon"

- Religious tolerance is not only original and fun, but it has some serious game implications regarding the employement of inquisitors in order to keep other religions at bay rather than re-converting your own people

- Reformation SP is a must for any civilization with its own religion

- The finisher gives faith a much needed added utility for the late game, great for faith heavy type of civs (Arabia, Ethiopia, Indonesia and the Celts comes to mind)

Overall, I love the redesign that it has got much kuds to Firaxis!

PS: The Honour SP tree, however, is still a hot steaming mess in dire need of a buff or complete overhaul

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You can also have Piety and Rationalism at the same time, giving you no reason to stay away from it.

Arilian said:

Why would it be?
For Byz, it is indeed good as they have no means of getting fast religion anyway. But they will not be a powerhouse at all.

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Goddess of the Hunt+Fertility Rites, or how about Tithes+Church Property given how scarce gold is now. There has always been the general consensus that Byzantium could be a powerhouse had they been more consistent in getting that religion, which in the higher levels of play is nigh impossible.

I am not saying it will not be a 'fun' policy, but it will not be strong.
I also found reformation belifs weak (unnecesary)

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Buying Tanks, Artillery, and Public Schools with faith is weak? That aside, it is no more unnecessary than extra Wonders in the game. It adds flavor and makes the whole system behind religion slightly more realistic. Religion has always been a useful and powerful tool in the player's arsenal, allowing them to compensate for various needs and situations. The reason Ethiopia and the Maya are top-tier is because they are one of the few civs guaranteed not only a Pantheon but a full fledged Religion. Religion is that powerful. I shudder to think of Piety enhanced Mayans. Half price Pyramids in Ancient era everyone, be very afraid.

In GnK it is very easy to win with no religion at all, even in deity, and if you dont get the religion as a gift (like meeting 2 Religion CS and coosing desert Pantheon for fast religion, or being ethiopian/maya) it is not worth it at all to go for religion.

Also tradition will still give you bigger cities = more prod/money/science

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Goddess of the Hunt/Feed the World+Fertility Rites/Swords into Plowshares in my opinion could still give Tradition a run for its money (see: Byzantium). As Byzantium you could actually go Goddess of the Hunt/Feed the Word+Fertility Rites+Swords into Plowshares+Tithes (to cover the costs of Aqueducts) and I could give a decent argument that that is better than Tradition as the growth is empire-wide and can be controlled somewhat. You don't even need to finish Piety with Byzantium to gain this kind of set-up, only a concerted Shrine build and you gain a gigantic (+1 at the least food, +25% food bonus, and extra gold) advantage at a stage much earlier than Tradition.

You can win at Deity without religion, just like how you can win at Deity with no city-states, OCC as Siam. Religion simply makes winning much easier and more likely. The opportunity costs are there but that is the whole point of opportunity costs. You still want a religion, no doubt. Any player would love to have a first-pick religion at any difficulty. The fact that we have Religion-focused civs that give other civs a run for their money is alone enough to illustrate how powerful Religion can be. Religion is incredibly versatile, moreso than any other resource, translating to Science, Food, Production, Culture, Tourism, Unit Strength, Happiness, Influence, all of them and any of them if focused.

Ikael said:

PS: The Honour SP tree, however, is still a hot steaming mess in dire need of a buff or complete overhaul

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Honor did get a few buffs:

• Unlocks the Statue of Zeus
• Finishing it allows buying Great Generals with Faith
• Warrior Code, on top of the current bonus also gives this: Great Generals are earned 25% faster.
• Professional Army, on top of the current bonus also gives: construct Barracks, Armories, and Military Academies 50% faster

Admittedly, none of that is huge. But they do make Honor more competitive and it also helps that some changes in the game make the Honor policies look better now and some of the Tradition policies look slightly less good.

Arilian said:

Why would it be?

What will make Science not the single best thing in the game? (still talking about single player)

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Religion is a versatile intrument; it can be critical if you have the right beliefs. Sure, it isn't vital, but it can help your happiness, culture, science and everything else. Now that Rationalism and Piety aren't exclusive, it becomes even better.

For Byz, it is indeed good as they have no means of getting fast religion anyway. But they will not be a powerhouse at all.

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They already are; the problem is that they aren't guaranteed to found a religion, or if they do they may neglect other things. With early piety, that becomes much easier.

I am not saying it will not be a 'fun' policy, but it will not be strong.
I also found reformation belifs weak (unnecesary)

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O.o They are looking extremely strong to me...

In GnK it is very easy to win with no religion at all, even in deity, and if you dont get the religion as a gift (like meeting 2 Religion CS and coosing desert Pantheon for fast religion, or being ethiopian/maya) it is not worth it at all to go for religion.

Also tradition will still give you bigger cities = more prod/money/science

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It all depends on the circumstances. You don't have to complete piety straight away, you know. You can get a couple of policies to give you a religion-boost, and then go for tradition.

You can win without a religion, but it does help enormously, and can grant some very powerful bonuses.

Oh, and you can buy great people with faith now if you complete the right trees from the Industrial age onwards; so even if you don't found a religion, having a couple of piety policies definitely helps.

Don't underestimate the usefulness of religion. It can be an immense help.

It does have its bonuses but it's a bad fit again as the structure of the policy tree is non-sensical. Basically, only two policies are worth taking in the early game. The Cheaper Faith purchases only helps you as soon as you got something to buy, as it doesn't extend to Great Prophets (right?). So you will go cheaper shrines and then faith on shrines. Theocracy needs cities to have grown a bit (= gold income of a city at least 10 or free Great Prophet for a Holy Site), Religious Tolerance needs ReligionS established and being spread, Reformation as well. On top of that Reformation requires Religious Tolerance, even though they work against each other, one making your own Religion stronger and the other making you want to trade with several other civs for their religions...

It's as headscratching for me as the Exploration and Aesthetics Trees, and as the fact that the Commerce policy giving you faster Great Merchant requires you to go for more Land Trade Routes. But what if you want to go for sea trade routes only? Or you play on a Archipelago map.

I'd say Piety needs serious balance modding again. It can't be both a early game and a middle game tree.

mitsho said:

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I'd say Piety needs serious balance modding again. It can't be both a early game and a middle game tree.

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I actually think that this was precisely the goal of the Piety tree and, unlike how Commerce (now Exploration/Commerce) used to operate, it's division doesn't negatively impact on the tree - all it means is that it's not meant to be filled out from start to finish as soon as you can.

For instance, I suspect that it'll certainly be a decent opening strategy to grab the Piety opener first to give the best shot at an early religion, then continue with your usual Tradition/Liberty opening before either filling out Piety (if the early religion worked out) or moving on to something else.

"Buying Tanks, Artillery, and Public Schools with faith is weak? "

Yes. Because you can also buy GS or GP from the faith. And you dont have faith for more that 5 tanks or 5 public school in a game.

"Goddess of the Hunt+Fertility Rites"
Very situational - also, the full tradition tree provide more food.

Sure yes, that's the general strategy. And it's the only one. Grab the opener, build a shrine, wait til you have more cities, take the second one. When you've got a religion, fill out the rest. Taking Piety #2 as the second or so policy isn't worth it, the 1 additional does not hold up against the policies from Liberty and Honour. So while it is a worthwile strategy, there isn't much variation here. If you want to make early shrines viable, wasn't there a way that doesn't involve social policies. Because now they couldn't make those other piety policies "early-game" strong.

I'd say the tree would be much finer if you'd just remove (all) the links between the policies. For example, Religious tolerance could be a very fine policy if you didn't found any religion. So why does it require others? On the other hand, some players may want to gun for a reformation belief to be able to chose the libraries-for-faith, but they don't have any other religion in their proximity. So the social policy "religious tolerance" is wasted for them.

And yes, there is some variation on how you are going to take the tree, but it all relates to the outside, namely when you'll take those liberty policies in comparison to the two piety ones.

Reformation; you can chose one of the reformation beliefs for your religion.

Reformation Belief
To The Glory of God; Use Faith to purchase any type of Great Person starting in the Industrial Era.

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This alone makes it worth going into Piety, since this is the only way to buy any great person without having to finish a tree.

Monthar said:

This alone makes it worth going into Piety, since this is the only way to buy any great person without having to finish a tree.

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Then again if you go SV you'll finish rationalism anyway. Chances are also high you'll be finishing Tradition anyway every other game... and what GP do you wanna buy apart from GS and GE?

It is nice though, because if you finish Piety you probably will not finish (many) other trees - so it kinda needs this bonus... what would you be doing with all the faith anyway otherwise?

If Byzantium has two pantheon beliefs, and you have Religious Tolerance (And they're the second most popular religion in your city), do you get BOTH bonuses?

Talcove said:

If Byzantium has two pantheon beliefs, and you have Religious Tolerance (And they're the second most popular religion in your city), do you get BOTH bonuses?

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Good question (is it 2 pantheons or 1 pantheon & 1 bonus)

I'm also wondering if it works with a Pantheon. ie if a pantheon is the second most common 'religion' will it still get its effect?

(That would make religious tolerance useful if you hadn't fouded a religion yet, and someone else's was invading your cities)