Crime & Punishment

We get the worrd rape from Latin raper, ( to seize /take away ) and refers to Roman practice of stealling women as mates, the pysical rape would be post that but conected to it, capture of women was common in antiquity, war bringing many females into the conquering society, a females life was fraught with peril in the ancient world as being taken captive was not uncommon.

What DK referes to is Solonic/hamurabic codes of laws for rape in society, Henry V for rape by the states armies in wartime and so on.

Should we even attempt to model such a change in attitudes with the adoption of such laws?, or do as Hydro points out with his last sentence.

Hydromancerx said:

So people never raped or murdered other people before the code of laws?

Seems to me bad behavior, tricking people or taking their stuff against their will has been going on long before they wrote down formal laws.

People are still going to be or wither or not you say they broke a law or not.

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Not if it was considered normal. That is where the problem lies. It was normal for two people to fight over a problem or difference of opinion, if one died then that was proof they were wrong. Now a days that would be murder or accidental murder.

In my most recent snail game almost all my cities went into revolt when I changed to chiefdom because of the -4 crime per turn I had been getting for the 100 turns it took me to get to chiefdom.

I did not look at what building(s) were giving that -4 per turn because it was at that point I figured out what I had doe wrong in modding RoH.

But even its its considered "normal" or within the current laws doesn't mean it will not still make or . For instance slavery was horrible for the slaves, but was not against the law for a very long time in human history. Now it is against the law and still happens in certain places around the world. Don't mean modern slavery is any more worse than that in antiquity.

Likewise other barbaric practices such as stoning or human sacrifice were the norm for many societies, however that doesn't make them any less horrific. If any thing the horror of those is what kept them from committing other crimes (such as stoning).

Even if a society is accepts such practices doesn't mean their actions do not still cause and/or in the victim of the "crime".

Note that I realize there are some exceptions to the rules where the crime is a "victimless crime". I am not talking about those.

I feel almost reluctant to ask this - is the crime feature considered finished at this point, or will there be a wider variety of buildings (preferably not death-penalty related) to reduce crime introduced at some point?

The reason I ask (sorry, sorry, sorry) is that I just feel that in my current game I have been turned into some mad despotic nutcase with a death-penalty/torture fetish, controlling crime largely through use of riot suppressing forces and capital punishment alone, no slightly more liberal options for social measures aimed at reducing crime - it's left me with a very bad taste in my mouth!

Again, sorry for any implied criticism. There should be more ways of reducing crime that do not involve killing or torturing your citizens, and there is no reason my crime rate (for any crime) should be as high as it is, given that my citizens are happy, healthy, well fed, and wealthy.

Will there be crime-reducing alternatives to the death penalty/torture/futuristic Orwellian nightmare in future versions?

@Epona222

Yes there will be more types of crimes (ex. Hacking, Internet Piracy, etc). I just usually make stuff in sets of 5, 10 or 20 (in this case 20 crimes).

And yes both buildable law and crime buildings are still to come.

Now that we have units reducing crime as well I'm finding it very easy to keep my Crime down in my cities, all for a low cost of Town Guards compared to the gain in gold from less crime buildings.
Might work to have +5 crime per pop now, unless you plan on more sources for increased crime to come, of course.

Does changing it mid game count retroactively back? If so changing it would mean a drastic change for current games. If not then a simple warning to keep an extra check on crime before making any change would suffice.

Remember my games are always Eternity, in case of balancing across game speeds factors in.

Cheers

BlueGenie said:

Now that we have units reducing crime as well I'm finding it very easy to keep my Crime down in my cities, all for a low cost of Town Guards compared to the gain in gold from less crime buildings.
Might work to have +5 crime per pop now, unless you plan on more sources for increased crime to come, of course.

Does changing it mid game count retroactively back? If so changing it would mean a drastic change for current games. If not then a simple warning to keep an extra check on crime before making any change would suffice.

Remember my games are always Eternity, in case of balancing across game speeds factors in.

Cheers

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I think the anti crime units are too cheap compared to the anti crime buildings.
Causing more crime by population will not fix that.
Anti crime units have considerable advantages already with their ability to suppress riots, their mobility and their military power.
Either restrict their numbers so you have to think about where you place them or make them more expensive than comparable anti crime buildings.

AIAndy said:

I think the anti crime units are too cheap compared to the anti crime buildings.
Causing more crime by population will not fix that.
Anti crime units have considerable advantages already with their ability to suppress riots, their mobility and their military power.
Either restrict their numbers so you have to think about where you place them or make them more expensive than comparable anti crime buildings.

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Or just tune down the crime reduction per unit. If it already at -1 per turn, tune ALL crime UP by a factor of 10 (including the trigger thresholds for crime buildings), which will have no net effect (apart from numbers displayed bweing 10 times larger but with the exact same functional impact as now). That way we that we effectively get 10th increments relative to what we have now, and we can THEN tune the anti-crime on units down a bit from the -10 it would then start with.

AIAndy said:

I think the anti crime units are too cheap compared to the anti crime buildings.
Causing more crime by population will not fix that.
Anti crime units have considerable advantages already with their ability to suppress riots, their mobility and their military power.
Either restrict their numbers so you have to think about where you place them or make them more expensive than comparable anti crime buildings.

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Don't all the Anti-Crime units have an iextracost? Wouldn't that help balance their ability to reduce crime?

Is there an option to turn off crime?

In the Civ4PropertiesInfos.xml in Assets/Xml, change
<iOperationalRangeMin>0</iOperationalRangeMin>
<iOperationalRangeMax>1000</iOperationalRangeMax>
to
<iOperationalRangeMin>0</iOperationalRangeMin>
<iOperationalRangeMax>0</iOperationalRangeMax>
I think.

There's no option for it in game settings though.

Cheers

BlueGenie said:

In the Civ4PropertiesInfos.xml in Assets/Xml, change
<iOperationalRangeMin>0</iOperationalRangeMin>
<iOperationalRangeMax>1000</iOperationalRangeMax>
to
<iOperationalRangeMin>0</iOperationalRangeMin>
<iOperationalRangeMax>0</iOperationalRangeMax>
I think.

There's no option for it in game settings though.

Cheers

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No. That just controls the AI's evaluation of it.

We should probably add a <bDisabled> tag to each property definition. That way you could have a module that just added <bDisabled>true</bDisabled> using the standard modular XML overriding. The effect would be to make it as though that property were not defined, so nothing that interacted with it would appear in-game.

Doing it that way makes it generic so you could use it to disable crime, or flammability, or any new spirituality property such as is being discussed elsewhere uniformly.

I am sure in the City Options there is an Off and a On for Crime and Flammability, at least thats what i thought AIAndy has made up already??

Where do I find this "City Options" location in the game or game setup?

JosEPh

strategyonly said:

I am sure in the City Options there is an Off and a On for Crime and Flammability, at least thats what i thought AIAndy has made up already??

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That is for filtering the buildings for it, not for activating or deactivating the mechanic as a whole.

Now that the Jail has been moved into the Renaissance Era we need some early crime places like:

"Hoosegow, mainline joint, skinner joint, stoney lonesome, con college, glasshouse, bucket, club fed, greybar hotel, big house, slammer, calaboose, castle, cooler, country club, crowbar hotel, digger, farm, guardhouse, hole, joint, jug, juvie, pen, pokey, rock, sneezer, stockade, the clink."

You get the idea

an idea i was having is that maybe there should be crime units or something like that, basically it means that these units would go to a rivals city and make crime buildings

what do you think?

I think the espionage bonuses/penalties on the crime/anti-crime buildings could use some work. Right now the system is a nice, simple, crime producing buildings take away espionage, anti-crime gives espionage. I don't feel that this makes 100% sense in all cases.

Some of these crime buildings, like Assassin's Dens, Mob Storefronts, Smuggler's Shanties, etc, are the perfect type of place for your law enforcement to get experience going undercover and learning things they aren't supposed to know, letting them graduate into proper spies. These crime ridden hovels are a great place to get information. Perhaps, rather than giving a penalty to espionage, they could reduce your defense bonus vs. enemy spies? Perhaps a severely steep one, like 25%, so these buildings still have significant penalty. That would get the idea across much better of chatty villains selling your secrets to the highest bidder than an espionage penalty. As it is, the penalties from these buildings are so high that I rarely build them, simply because I am usually hurting for espionage as it is.

Some of the anti-crime buildings that grant espionage don't particularly make sense, either. Police offices, Jails (Especially Jails), that sort of thing, sure. Why do execution methods like Crucifixion and Guillotines grant espionage, though?

I'd have to agree with your assessments there hotrod... and I've made some similar arguments before.

unknown: great idea. Along those lines I think what we were considering doing there was making 'criminal organizations' through the Corporations function, weren't we? (If not, we should! ) The only problem would be that we'd have to make them immune to being turned off by the civics that disable corporations and make them susceptible to unique civic changes. Some criminal elements were only going to thrive during the prohibition era and there's no crime in selling pot in Amsterdam to name a few examples.

In fact, legal policies could take on all new categories of civics to interact with that system really. This way we define what's illegal and what's not in our nations and take bonuses and penalties for each choice. Some decisions could work to undermine other nations that are trying to make certain things illegal, such as the political tolerance for cocaine manufacturing in some nations leading to greater crime, unhealth, loss of production and general unrest in those nations that label the stuff illegal. Such legalities/illegalities could greatly alter the effect and constructability of many buildings.

anunknownman said:

an idea i was having is that maybe there should be crime units or something like that, basically it means that these units would go to a rivals city and make crime buildings

what do you think?

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Already in, and have been for a while. The Ambusher line of units spread crime, while the Town Guard/Police units stop it. There is also the Riot Control promotion, which adds neg crime to a unit.