Possible Future Direction (personal view)
- Thread starter Koshling
- Start date
No. If this comes to fruition were talking about order of a year or so. It's not imminent, or certain. In any case tech audio will be totally re-usable without any issues.
I don't want to touch this with a ten foot stick. It would add so many complications and cause so many issues with our decentralized and international team that it could never be worth it. Please lets not consider this, we do this for fun now and it should remain so.
I'm gunna be honest... I personally would prefer to stick to what we have now and keep improving it rather than starting from scratch. I somewhat feel avoiding dealing with perfecting multimaps is what is putting koshling off continuing the civ 4 path...
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
That really is a good question though, how will this impact getting Multi-Mapping in C2C soonish??
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I have found that the three different data models for a single project works well in keeping things flexible. The Data Storage data model is about how data is stored and maintained - the XML we have fits that for example. The model in the processing is designed for fast/maintainable processing and the model for the UI is designed around what the player expects to be able to do. Often concepts go across the model but attributes may not. The simplest example of the latter is that the UI needs to know all the graphics stuff whereas the processing part does not. Some complexity is added in the interfaces between the data models but overall flexibility is enhanced.
This whole thing is my fault unfortunately... I'm cursed! I warned you all when I came here that every game I find that has a "constantly update/improve" development cycle always dies/ends soon after (within months) after I find it. "Back to the future: Hill Valley", "Terraria", "endgame: Singularity" and heaps more. I've only been lucky with minecraft so far unfortunately ;(
I feel the dead end in this mod is multimaps. Once it's done its done and we can extend this mod out so much more. I feel that koshling has given up on multimaps (I remember it being said that multimaps would be completly done by v24) and that's why he is moving onto this new project because he feels multimaps will be too difficult of a hurdle to overcome.
The way I feel is that right now, if you want to start over coding caveman2cosmos from scratch to remove civ4 limitations then you should stop working on this mod all together and focus totally on coding the new game right now. Why waste another minute on this project struggling to make it do what you want to do if you just want to scrap it and start something new which won't have such limitations?
If I had advice it would be, perfect multimaps right now and once it's all done start the new game and focus entirely on that. That way the other modders working on this mod have a great base to work from for future era expansion and you can fully focus and dedicate your time on the new game.
Will you be using everything we currently use in this game? The buildings, the units, the tech tree ect...? Or will it be a truely unique game from scratch?
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Even if muti-maps are put in we still have a lot of work to do on them. Then add on all the other stuff that doesn't depend upon multi-maps. And I hope people have not forgotten about the Nomad mod too. Or the Combat mod, or the usable rivers, or the land mine mod, or the labor civic or the cultural identity stuff or dynamic traits or electricity property or holidays or diseases or pests or artifacts or franchises or more cultures and culture units or atomicpunk or cyberpunk, or biopunk or most of the trans-human era or all of the galactic era or ... you get the idea.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I'm not planning to stop working on this mod anytime soon for any reason. I understand Koshling's motivations to start moving towards this route because in many ways, from his perspective, it would make things a LOT easier to accomplish what he wants to do (and so much more.) But I do think if we go that route, it SHOULD be a completely new game and every mechanic should be rethought, even if it was intended to take all data from C2C as at least a basic model of what we'd like to have in a final package.
But yeah, that doesn't mean things come to a stop here by any means I think. Not for me at least.
But yeah, that doesn't mean things come to a stop here by any means I think. Not for me at least.
Are there any modders here who would consider leaving this project if koshling did? In other words is koshling a very important moder here that's practically holding this entire community together? That's the image I have of koshling in my head but hopefully it's not right!
If koshling never worked on perfecting multimaps would it ever be added to this mod in the future?
If koshling never worked on perfecting multimaps would it ever be added to this mod in the future?
I don't plan on leaving. I'd just reduce my effort to focused bug fixes (and multimap support as necessary).
Also, to go back to something you said earlier, it is in no way 'your fault'. We've been having these debates about the restrictions that Civ IV imposes for far longer than you've been on these boards, with some people pushing us to move to Civ V pretty much since it came out. I fear that far from relieving the issues, multimaps will just expose them more (scalability, graphical glitching, etc. will likely get worse as we put more utilization into things like multi-maps which stretch the boundaries). Anyway, the goal (from my perspective) really boils down to two things:
- Actually have some solid foundation to work from that do not have scalability issues at the kinds of scales we might be interested in, and which do not impose something of a straight-jacket on the nature of the UI (including things like platform)
- Have fun in modding. The reason I do this is because it's interesting. When the interesting part gets buried behind a vast heap of bug fixing, and obscure work-arounds to platform limitations it becomes a chore. I don't do chores as a hobby
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Sometimes you have to start an Idea and work at it for awhile before you come to the realization that it's not what you wanted. Multimaps may have reached that realization.
This mod has spent 2+ years perfecting the Prehistoric Era because it was doable. But it maybe that the idea of the Future Eras is not panning out as proposed. And to have the Future Eras a different approach may be needed. And the original ideas scrapped.
The TH Era if still earth centric can work. But the next step/Era after would probably need to go into a Final Frontier type set up and not what has been planned, because of the stated limitations.
I think that is part of the reason we've not heard back from the Sara Starlight Crew. They found out it was more work than they wanted to do and lost their desire. The Cosmos in C2C may have to take a different approach.
JosEPh
This mod has spent 2+ years perfecting the Prehistoric Era because it was doable. But it maybe that the idea of the Future Eras is not panning out as proposed. And to have the Future Eras a different approach may be needed. And the original ideas scrapped.
The TH Era if still earth centric can work. But the next step/Era after would probably need to go into a Final Frontier type set up and not what has been planned, because of the stated limitations.
I think that is part of the reason we've not heard back from the Sara Starlight Crew. They found out it was more work than they wanted to do and lost their desire. The Cosmos in C2C may have to take a different approach.
JosEPh
DRJ
Hedonist
Koshling, don't let the november rain depress you - if you continue to do like you mapped out in post #1 its (at least) four more years of awesomeness and - to stress the metaphores - your plan of moving onto a new platform could be like ending the (corporate) prohibition once and for all.
Looking forward to read (and, if possible, posting in) your blog, but i also secound the argument that embedding it here on civfanatics would be a good way to draw more attention... (lol wouldn't have thought the day would come when i plead for embedded journalism..)
Looking forward to read (and, if possible, posting in) your blog, but i also secound the argument that embedding it here on civfanatics would be a good way to draw more attention... (lol wouldn't have thought the day would come when i plead for embedded journalism..)
rightfuture
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2008
- Messages
- 1,649
Everyone please!!! (corrected a bit)
I think staying together as a group/focused effort is what moves everyone forward. You have to do a cost/benefit comparison before making a jump. It is probably much easier to build forward on a well developed base, then keep trying to stay ahead of technology changes and having to start from scratch. Not to say that eventually it doesn't becomes better to move forward at some point.
The trick is keeping the power of unity, and focus. One of the reasons C2C is so great is that it is built on the efforts of so many others others, and that so many great people stayed together long enough to move it ambitiously so much forward.
If everyone decides to move forward, there will be a long period of design, and getting the engine going before play and the freedom of freely adding new features comes in to play, not to mention losing the large player base from C2C, civ iv, ROM, AND, etc.
You do this right and you'll pull in Civ v guys and everyone else.
I think you should always stand on 2 legs and move back and forth as you get bored, stuck, or run out of ideas;
switching back and forth between..
-1 project main focus (where the weight of assets are) = C2C and
-1 ideal realistic future focus (fixing the major problems and moving past the legacy issues) without abandoning those assets.
Ultimately, I am pretty certain the secret will be in staying together as much as possible, while moving back and forth.
Think of it as a resonant wave of time, where people come together with the power of focus, and then are free to independently explore and develop future ideas that move us all forward together.
Doing this will help you break free of problems and develop fresh perspectives.
In my opinion, This is what could help you guys.
1. Constantly focus on where we are now and shift back and forth to the future. Great way to overcome obstacles and boredom and to have freedom.
2. Find the best way to shift/balance between personal and collective/group efforts. Sometimes you make more progress together or by yourself. Time it a little and progress will be easier.
3. Try bridge the gap between the two, so the efforts keep moving you (and everyone else) forward without losing the gains of the past.
My argument is that we have all spent a lot of time (in their own ways) investing here, because we love CIV and C2C, so not to throw it all away, we should try to stick together and keep our main efforts moving, without losing anything what we value.
You have a great team, great ideas, great assets, a great tradition, and even greater promise if you can keep it moving and together. With 1 main focus, and 1 alternate focus that bridges, you can move back and forth between ideas and improvement, with both helping each other without much loss. You really don't want to throw this baby out with the bathwater.
When it comes to focus you all really have 3 different ones.
1. Main - Group focus. more good people = better foundation and movement.
2. Future - Alternate group focus that bridges 1-2. more flexible and abstract.
3. Independent efforts - that can build off of one or the other. To guarantee that this don't split the group, distract someone, or waste your independent efforts, your choice of time is probably better spent trying to leverage the assets of the 1-2 focus. Sometimes you have to take a different direction for a while, but the further you wander, the slower you(and we) move personally.
You get further when you tie them together.
You all multiply each other's efforts, and we only go so far by ourselves.
Please remember the power of focus, building the right team, and keeping in contact.
C2C still has a lot of opportunity and momentum,
Please, Please move forward with everyone, and don't forget what assets and progress this C2C society has that can be lost or slip away. Eventually every engineering team has to commit to a prototype, so they can build the next one. When design limitations weigh you down more than you can move freely, then as a group you need to move to the next one, with the strength of the past one as a foundation. This decision is an important one. Make sure it will keep everyone moving in the right direction. And make sure enough of the community is behind you. Please do this together.
It is true that someday you will need to move forward; take as much value with you as you can,
you will not appreciate what you have until it's gone or left behind.
And please remember the power of the right team focus to make dreams happen!
You have done some amazing things when you have pushed and tried!! I for one want to see what more greatness you can bring C2C too!
I care deeply so please try to keep making the best decisions you can!
You can start building the future now, while keeping the main focus moving!
I see four more years of C2C improving geometrically if not exponentially. Don't you see how much more greatness you create, when you really come together!!!!
Look past the hill of the moment and the horizon to the amazing valley and river on the other side!! and when you decide to move please remember to bring us with you!!
We all get burnt out or distracted sometimes, taking a break is healthy, I just hope everyone keeps the momentum in the right direction.
Please make The Next C2C a transitional project and a place to take a break. New ideas can span both and keep people together.
To me it already is more than Civ 6, and i want to see C2C become the definitive probable advancement that it is quickly becoming.
C2C deserves a solid realization of it's promise and aspirations, it also deserves a chance to become more.
ROM and AND were complete steps, C2C is on the verge of being at least 2. Not just a continuation, but a jump over even Civ V, realized today.
Maybe Cavemen2Cosmos could inspire and be more than Civ 6? It isn't that far.
So I recommend you do both.
Thanks for hearing me out.
Please reach together.
I think staying together as a group/focused effort is what moves everyone forward. You have to do a cost/benefit comparison before making a jump. It is probably much easier to build forward on a well developed base, then keep trying to stay ahead of technology changes and having to start from scratch. Not to say that eventually it doesn't becomes better to move forward at some point.
The trick is keeping the power of unity, and focus. One of the reasons C2C is so great is that it is built on the efforts of so many others others, and that so many great people stayed together long enough to move it ambitiously so much forward.
If everyone decides to move forward, there will be a long period of design, and getting the engine going before play and the freedom of freely adding new features comes in to play, not to mention losing the large player base from C2C, civ iv, ROM, AND, etc.
You do this right and you'll pull in Civ v guys and everyone else.
I think you should always stand on 2 legs and move back and forth as you get bored, stuck, or run out of ideas;
switching back and forth between..
-1 project main focus (where the weight of assets are) = C2C and
-1 ideal realistic future focus (fixing the major problems and moving past the legacy issues) without abandoning those assets.
Ultimately, I am pretty certain the secret will be in staying together as much as possible, while moving back and forth.
Think of it as a resonant wave of time, where people come together with the power of focus, and then are free to independently explore and develop future ideas that move us all forward together.
Doing this will help you break free of problems and develop fresh perspectives.
In my opinion, This is what could help you guys.
1. Constantly focus on where we are now and shift back and forth to the future. Great way to overcome obstacles and boredom and to have freedom.
2. Find the best way to shift/balance between personal and collective/group efforts. Sometimes you make more progress together or by yourself. Time it a little and progress will be easier.
3. Try bridge the gap between the two, so the efforts keep moving you (and everyone else) forward without losing the gains of the past.
My argument is that we have all spent a lot of time (in their own ways) investing here, because we love CIV and C2C, so not to throw it all away, we should try to stick together and keep our main efforts moving, without losing anything what we value.
You have a great team, great ideas, great assets, a great tradition, and even greater promise if you can keep it moving and together. With 1 main focus, and 1 alternate focus that bridges, you can move back and forth between ideas and improvement, with both helping each other without much loss. You really don't want to throw this baby out with the bathwater.
When it comes to focus you all really have 3 different ones.
1. Main - Group focus. more good people = better foundation and movement.
2. Future - Alternate group focus that bridges 1-2. more flexible and abstract.
3. Independent efforts - that can build off of one or the other. To guarantee that this don't split the group, distract someone, or waste your independent efforts, your choice of time is probably better spent trying to leverage the assets of the 1-2 focus. Sometimes you have to take a different direction for a while, but the further you wander, the slower you(and we) move personally.
You get further when you tie them together.
You all multiply each other's efforts, and we only go so far by ourselves.
Please remember the power of focus, building the right team, and keeping in contact.
C2C still has a lot of opportunity and momentum,
Please, Please move forward with everyone, and don't forget what assets and progress this C2C society has that can be lost or slip away. Eventually every engineering team has to commit to a prototype, so they can build the next one. When design limitations weigh you down more than you can move freely, then as a group you need to move to the next one, with the strength of the past one as a foundation. This decision is an important one. Make sure it will keep everyone moving in the right direction. And make sure enough of the community is behind you. Please do this together.
It is true that someday you will need to move forward; take as much value with you as you can,
you will not appreciate what you have until it's gone or left behind.
And please remember the power of the right team focus to make dreams happen!
You have done some amazing things when you have pushed and tried!! I for one want to see what more greatness you can bring C2C too!
I care deeply so please try to keep making the best decisions you can!
You can start building the future now, while keeping the main focus moving!
I see four more years of C2C improving geometrically if not exponentially. Don't you see how much more greatness you create, when you really come together!!!!
Look past the hill of the moment and the horizon to the amazing valley and river on the other side!! and when you decide to move please remember to bring us with you!!
We all get burnt out or distracted sometimes, taking a break is healthy, I just hope everyone keeps the momentum in the right direction.
Please make The Next C2C a transitional project and a place to take a break. New ideas can span both and keep people together.
To me it already is more than Civ 6, and i want to see C2C become the definitive probable advancement that it is quickly becoming.
C2C deserves a solid realization of it's promise and aspirations, it also deserves a chance to become more.
ROM and AND were complete steps, C2C is on the verge of being at least 2. Not just a continuation, but a jump over even Civ V, realized today.
Maybe Cavemen2Cosmos could inspire and be more than Civ 6? It isn't that far.
So I recommend you do both.
Thanks for hearing me out.
Please reach together.
I was thinking of a compromise - perhaps the axxxxe itself could be open-source, and could be used freely for non-commercial projects, but the use of it for commercial purposes would require the payment of a royalty of some sort to fund project development.
Maybe you could request help from a few other programming forums to see if anyone could help multimaps become a reality or even politely ask the original civ developers to unlock the limitations of civ 4 for you?
I just wish I understood why civ 4 has limits, every limit is something in the code right? Why can't that code be modified! Why can't the limits be increased! Why can't we achieve what we want freely with the civ4 game engine!
I just wish I understood why civ 4 has limits, every limit is something in the code right? Why can't that code be modified! Why can't the limits be increased! Why can't we achieve what we want freely with the civ4 game engine!
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Very simple, "we" do not own it. We rent it. And the Landlord laid out what we could and could not do to the apt (modding in this case).
JosEPh
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
I have written Firaxis, and as usual, i have not gotten a response . . SO
Even if they wanted to (which I doubt) they probably could not release that part in a compilable way as it uses the proprietary Gamebryo engine.
Similar threads
