Immortal slavers!

I would build at least 2-3 warriors and a settler before the barracks. They really aren't much use so early - rather get copper online sooner. We can build rax while regrowing from :whipped: (somehow I imagine we'll see this smilie several times in that thread, don't you? :p).

Let's get these first few turns played :D

Oh, and @shyuhe: Nice to play alongside you again. I have yet to beat the score from "my final huzzah" in a proper game :p;)

I will try to play tonight... but want to hear about all players... even those who are probably still sleeping (Rusten :p)

That "final huzzah" game was indeed terrific guys :whipped: (yeah that' s a free one)
 
I normally don't build a barracks so early unless there's nothing better to build. Fogbusting warriors on forrested hills can help reduce barb problems and annoying barb city placement.

Looking at the map again, I'm not so sure an early WB is the best here. Getting BW and chopping or :whipped: the first WB may be faster since we have so many forests in our BFC. If there are farmable resources, I think we should reconsider our first build to worker first. If there are no farmable resources, build a warrior to grow to 2 while teching fishing, then max production at size 2 for a WB. Clams aren't very good food sources though :(

Completely OT:
Nice to play alongside you again mysty :) It's been a while hasn't it! I haven't beaten the score from that game either. I haven't beaten that 300k score either. I'd have to juice my settings to get a score that high.
 
An Agg Barracks is 1 chop + 5 other hammers. A Warrior in the capital with only Combat I is OK, but Warriors with 2 promotions are much better in the field.
 
In any case, I 'll settle the cap and move the scout one SE for better info

edit: look this beauty...



ok now I 'll try to see what is best... Shyuhe, I don't think the worker can wait BW now ;)
 
I've tryed to do my homeworks but never was really good at it :lol:...
Going partial worker -> worboat (working 1f2h) -> workboat (working clams then clams+ 1f2h) gives BW in turns 29, 3 pop if I am not already drunk...
Going full worker ( mine gold hill) -> wb (working 1f2h then gold mine) -> wb (working clams) gives 26 turns on BW but pop 1 :(
I've not tested an agri opening (seems inferior) nor a direct BW build order with whip... If someone feels the courage...

Cheers
 
Hard starting position to assess in ones head, but I don't think worker -> agriculture is a good idea. Unirrigated rice is a really bad tile and there's not much to do after that. It's a really long walk from the rice to the gold on normal speed and even then it's going to lack food. I think growing to size 2 and getting work boats is better. However, I don't think that's the best approach either.

Personally, I'm inclined to consider worker -> wb (fishing -> mining) and early sailing (still after BW -- pre-chop forests). The idea is to finish fishing by the time the worker is completed and mining by the time it reaches the gold (not a problem). Then we can start on a wb working a 2/1/1 tile. I think the silk is best as that puts us at 10 food when the gold is ready and IIRC you need 22 food to grow to size 2 on normal so it'll only take 3 turns to grow when the clam is up. It works out in hammers as well (5x2=10 and 4x5=20 -> 20+10 = 30 = the cost of a wb). The wb will be out on turn 25 and work the clam on turn 26. We will be size 2 working both clam and gold on turn 29 and have another wb on its way -- very strong!

Once the gold is mined (turn 20) we can use it to boost research and go for early sailing for a lighthouse (chop). At any rate, I'd ignore the rice for now -- "it's a trap!".

This also opens up the GLH which is a good wonder even on Pangea (but not overpowered). We can put a city on the desert tile for overseas trade routes (it has fish to grow and perhaps more as well). Getting the GLH shouldn't be too hard with all these forests and early research with gold, but on pangea we might want to expand a bit first (or do both at the same time by whipping settlers). I wouldn't make it our main plan, but if it's still up for grabs when it's reasonable to pursue it I'd definitely go for it.

In summary:
worker -> wb -> wb
fishing -> mining -> bw -> sailing
 
GLH seems viable as a plan to me.

-We are guaranteed offshore commerce with the little island there. It's got coastal fish so enough food to whip some basic infra, it's not going to be total junk. With the GLH it's going to make up for the costs anyway.
-With the jungle to the north and sea to the south early expansion is likely going to be along the coast and slow, though this might be a bit early to make a call on that. We need more info about the surroundings for that.
-Lots of trees to chop for the GLH.

Leave the rice be since the clams are a better food source... I don't know whether growing to size 2 then building WB's or worker-first then WB's is better. Rusten's plan seems viable to me.

Techwise, Fishing->Mining->BW->Sailing, then break out the whip. ;)

I'm not yet sure about the tech order past that since we might need Archery depending on whether there's copper. We'll see that once the first few turns have been played.
 
OK Rusten's plan is what i tested but working the spice while building the wb waiting for the gold... I think I might do just that :)
Will play till BW sometime tonight... feel free to further comment ;)

Cheers
 
I suggest that a Jag rush should be our default strategy here, because Standard/Normal Pangaea is usually crowded enough for it, we are Agg, our capital has commerce to get to IW and pretty good production, and we are in the jungle anyway. Information that would favor a more builder opening would be things like strong neighbors, or good city spots to settle. I don't think we have such information yet.
 
Good point Jet... We will have hopefully better info after the opening... Let's see the map ;)
 
I played exactly as per Rusten's plan, and everything went as expected:

10 food in the bar when the gold mine completes:
Spoiler :


3 turns to grow to size 2 at BW, wb in place...
Spoiler :


We met Isabella (Buddhism) after leaving a tribal village (39 g):
Spoiler :


...quickly followed by Pericles:
Spoiler :


...and Hammurabi:
Spoiler :


... and finally Willem (Hinduism):
Spoiler :


I stopped at BW to discuss next moves... I like the idea of a jaguar rush...

Both Pericles and Bella are very close:
Spoiler :


Further info on Pericles:
Spoiler :


Resource map:
Spoiler :

...yeah Pericles has copper, we must move fast if we choose that path...

Note: the worker is unmoved... I guess we want to start chopping...

Thoughts?

Roster:
Rusten -> up!
Shyuhe ->on deck!

Cheers
 

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Well, we could easily jaguar choke the two nearest AI, but I'm not sure that'll help. Has Pericles revolted to slavery already? If so, jaguar rushing him is going to be painful, what with Sparta on a hill :mad: If he hasn't adopted slavery, we can warrior choke his copper and take him out at our leisure.
 
Got it! :whipped:

Don't like the idea of attacking Pericles for many of the same reasons as shyuhe. Even if we do stop him from hooking up copper all of his cities are going to have cultural defense and we know that at least one of them are on a hill. Axemen aren't the only thing to fear -- those archers will be a pain as well. If we are to jag rush anyone I think Izzy is the better choice, but if her capital is on a hill..... strikes me as very risky -- it could cost us the game. :(

Another option is early alphabet via oracle. We're pretty much guaranteed to get it with all these forests and the gold (we don't need any other techs right now).
We could tech meditation -> priesthood -> writing -> oracle alphabet and then trade for the techs we need (including IW eventually).

Then we can settle 1 or 2 cities while teching towards construction and kill 1 or 2 civs with jaguars and siege. The prophet can be used to get a shrine in Madrid.

At the very least I think we can disregard any peaceful plans cuz there are almost no resources to claim--we definitely want capital(s). The two main options as I see it is to:

1) Jag rush Izzy
IW -> wheel
2 workers and chop--no cities.

It's a little risky, but we won't lose many (if any) city spots in the process. Our resources are safely tucked away to the west of Tenochtitlan. The downside is that it could cost us the game if we're unlucky.

2) Construction beeline (preferrably using the Oracle).
Almost guaranteed to succeed, but probably not as good as a successful jag rush.

I am tempted to go for option 1 simply because it's more fun, but if this was the BOTM I wouldn't risk it. ;)

Opinions?
 
Option one is veeeeeery tempting. Obviously it could cost us the game but heck, it'll be a fun way of losing :lol:

Considering we can start building jags ~2000 BC at our current tech rate, I think it's totally doable. We can start pre-chopping forests in preparation for the rush as well. However, Pericles may settle some jungle cities between us and Izzy, which may complicate things later.
 
Pericles is not in Slavery. Barcelona has been settled, but I think Madrid must be 2E3N of the flood plain tile. ~ Cheese Alert ~ I think flying camera mode shows whether or not it's on a hill, although it's difficult for that tile. You fly around behind it at ground level and see whether the view to the visible part of the map is blocked by a hill. I enjoy the method, but it is risqué. :mischief:
 
Because of how close everyone is the Great Lighthouse doesn't seem that good of a plan anymore since we'll have to fight our way out of this.

And although option 1 is indeed very tempting - we're Monty after all :D - I'd prefer to go to option 2. Option 1 is too big a gamble for me, because as I see it this depends on these uncertain factors:

-We do not know whether Izzy's cities are hilled.
-We do not know whether Izzy has copper (send scout plz!)
-We do not know how fast Izzy's going to tech to IW. It's a tech the AI loves to get early and when we're arriving with a bunch of jags in +/- 1600 BC (which might just be a little too optimistic) the AI is certainly capable of already having iron up and running.

Perhaps I'm not in the right Monty mindset for this. It seems like the obvious thing for AI Monty to do.

Let's hear from the rest of the team first. Option 1 seems to get the consensus of 'risky but fun'.
 
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