SGOTM2 Germany - Team scout

While a Middle Ages GA is generally preferable, I think an industrial age GA might actually serve us better with this odd variant. Those industrial age techs are expensive, and burning through the industrial age will be key.

Getting Copernicus' would give us an edge in research, which we could use to speed up the tech pace. And until we get our inner core hacked out of the jungle and get our FP on-line, we will need every edge we can get. I think the combination of Copernicus', Smith's, and Newton's could be more powerful than a GA.

I sure wish GK would come back from the beach, or wherever he is...
 
Bear in mind also that a GA can be used to build universities everywhere...

Also, NP, Scout has mentioned this and I also believe that 2 scientific wonders will trigger a GA, so that's something to consider! Newton's University and the Theory of Evolution should trigger our GA anyway in the early Industrial Age.
 
I've been giving this game a little bit of thought, and I have 2 suggestions:

First - we ought to think about a bee-line to Democracy. We need democracy's uber-worker, and it will help the tech pace if we can get the AI into democracy as well. Since Republic offers no advantage over democracy, we should revolt as soon as we get the tech, and then trade/gift it around the table.

Second - we need to speed up our play a bit. Since Staff has not raised any objections to the odd numbered turnsets that have been turned in, I want everyone to play twelve (12) turns instead of ten.

If we do not pick up the pace soon we will be pressured to meet the deadline.

@Tallanas: Consider yourself "on deck". Assuming Northern Pike gets to this game and posts a turnlog this evening, the clock will start immediately on Gengis Khan. I have not heard from him in several days, and he's MIA in at least one other SG. I hate to do this, but the 24-hour clock will start the moment NP posts his turnlog, because I have no way of knowing when GK will return.

Northern Pike - UP
Gengis Khan - On Deck
Tallanas - Warming up
Scoutsout - standing by
Mistfit - just played

Missing in Action (not expected back): qm1pooh, mr Tweed
 
Tallanas said:
Also, NP, Scout has mentioned this and I also believe that 2 scientific wonders will trigger a GA, so that's something to consider! Newton's University and the Theory of Evolution should trigger our GA anyway in the early Industrial Age.

This is vital information if true, but I'm not quite convinced. The Civilopedia states unambiguously that a Wonder-triggered GA requires Wonders corresponding to both of a civ's strengths. Are you gentlemen so sure two scientific Wonders would be sufficient that we can disregard the Civilopedia? That is to say, have you actually seen this, in vanilla?

Scoutsout, I should be able to post twelve turns this evening.
 
560 (0): Excellent RCP--a pleasure to see. :goodjob:

We've got twenty workers committed to the very slow work of clearing jungle, and twelve of them aren't even servicing core cities. Jungle clearance in outlying areas really isn't an efficient use of limited labour this early in the game.

Since we aren't planning to go out and conquer anybody, our minimal army doesn't need expensive knights as much as it needs numbers. I'll switch Frankfurt from knight to pikeman.

Salzburg is a first-ring city, so a courthouse isn't a high-priority build there. I'll switch the town to a barracks.

Bremen is a promising town which isn't getting quick population growth, so I don't want to abuse it by producing a settler there before it has a granary. I'll make the corresponding switch (settler --> granary).

I get all three of our knights moving towards the barbarian-infested islands. We aren't going to be using them to attack in the southwest--and if we're attacked, we'll think of something. ;)

Heidelberg barracks --> pikeman.


570 (1): We found New Stuttgart on Mistfit's site in the jungle.

The French have Gunpowder.

Salzburg barracks --> pikeman.


580 (2): Cologne marketplace --> barracks.


590 (3): Two knights set sail for the northeastern island in a galley.

We discover Astronomy and begin research on Banking, due in eight turns at 60% science, 0 gpt.

Munich barracks --> pikeman, New Konigsberg library --> courthouse.


600 (4): The two knights land on the northeastern island, without spotting any barbarians.

We trade Astronomy to the French for Gunpowder, 86 gold, and 9 gpt (full value). Loosely speaking, we have three saltpetre--but all three are one tile beyond our cultural borders for the moment.

The Japanese have beaten us to the northwestern island, founding Bizen. I'll rush a caravel in case we can still found on the other end of the island.


610 (5): We get a caravel containing two settlers and a knight moving towards the northwestern island.

Our southern archer shoots down a barbarian warrior, then repels the attack of a barbarian horseman.

Cologne barracks --> university, Bremen granary --> university.


620 (6): The southern archer disperses a Gepid camp for 25 gold.

Well, since the arguments are finely balanced, I won't override our fearless leader's opinion as to what to do with the Konigsberg pre-build. So:
 
630 (7): In an attempt to speed up construction of the Forbidden Palace, I merge two workers into New Berlin. Much of the benefit is lost to corruption, but time until completion does decline from 69 turns to 45.

Two of our settlers reach the northeastern island--where there are no barbarians, but still, we were right to be careful.

Hamburg aqueduct --> library.


640 (8): The French have Music Theory.

Nuremberg produces our first harbour; but since we don't have Navigation, no new trade opportunites arise.


650 (9): A goody hut on the northwestern island produces three Magyar warriors. They don't (to jump ahead in the account a bit) give our knight any trouble, and the knight promotes to elite.


660 (10): We found New Bonn on the northeastern island.

Suddenly four rival civs have Banking, so our chance of trading it to the French for Music Theory is lost. We then discover it for ourselves, and begin work on Democracy, due in nine turns at 60% science, 5 gpt.


670 (11): We found New Salzburg and New Dortmund on the northwestern island, completing settlement here (bearing in mind the one Japanese city).


680 (12): We found New Brandenburg on the northeastern island, and Funfkirchen in the southern corridor between Strasbourg and Vladivostok.
 
I've started a palace pre-build for Newton in Konigsberg. Even if we end up overpaying for Newton somewhat, I think this is the safe play. Right now I have Konigsberg set for no population growth, since it couldn't keep a tenth citizen happy anyway, but its food surplus should be restored if the happiness situation changes.

The settler in Nuremberg should be used to found a city three tiles directly north of New Brandenburg, which will give us complete control of the northeastern island. I've assembled enough pikemen and spearmen in and around Nuremberg and New Munich to provide proper garrisons for the five island cities, and free our knights for more useful work. There are still barbarian galleys off the coasts of the islands, so be careful.

Our southern settler, near Funfkirchen, should found a city on the tile directly east of the one it now occupies.

We have the option of buying furs from the French. I haven't done this, because most of our cities don't need help with happiness yet; but if we do do it, we should be sure to merge another worker into our FP city.

We only need another 1-3 settlers out of Berlin, depending on how determined we are to claim every remaining neutral tile. After these have been built Berlin, and perhaps other towns, should produce workers for merging into other cities (which appears to be allowable in this game, though I encourage the rest of you to check this independently). This is the most important advice I have to offer in the situation we now face. I don't think we can get out of the hole we're in just on the basis of natural population growth. But with intelligent use of worker merges, we've got a shot.

The French are ahead of us by Music Theory, the Indians are even with us, and the other civs are 1-2 techs behind us. I haven't gone so far as to give the laggards the techs they lack, because I'm not sure how radical our policy is in this regard, but it can be done now if that's what the team wants.

The efficient way to use the workers southwest of Dortmund would be to have the ones which become active next turn build a road. On the turn after that, the whole stack can move southeast and cut down the forest with no wasted labour.
 
From what I can tell (I only skimmed the log) that looks like a very strong set of turns, NP! :thumbsup:

@Tallanas: Gengis got skipped in a SG we're both in, and is MIA in another SG I am following. When we hit 24-hours after NPs turnlog, feel free to take it and play 12 if GK has not posted. I hate to crack the :whipped: but we need to keep this moving.

@NP: I don't really disagree with you on the Knights, I know they are expensive (and we don't plan to go on the offense)... but a reasonable number of Knights can be really useful. They can reinforce a position quickly, defend as well as pikes, and skirmish in the defense. I certainly don't object to building some numbers in our military, but if we could scrape together 6-8 knights of the next few turnsets I think it would be a Good Thing.

Another @NP: What do you think our chances are of snagging Smith's AND Newton's? Do we have a second city that appears productive enough to chase another wonder? Or do you think that would be reaching?

...or should we skip the dead-end techs and burn straight for the Industrial age? Hmmm... that brings me back to the Knights...

I can't remember the last time I skipped Military Tradition... but what do you guys think about a hard burn for the IA? As in, no more dead-end techs after Democracy? We could let the AI chase all the silly dead-end techs, and pick them up cheap sometime in the early IA when we trade them back up to speed...

I am rambling... and trying to cope a little bit here. It would seem Karasu handed team scout a pretty strong player... having to learn the style and strengths of a good player is a good problem to have, IMO.

another @NP: I'm open to your input...and will read your turnlog more thoroughly tomorrow evening. I saw some good suggestions there on worker moves.
 
Thanks for your generous comments. :)

We don't have another city as productive as Konigsberg, but even so I like the idea of starting a second pre-build a lot. At monarch the AI only gets a 10% discount, and the AI civs' decisions as to where to build Wonders are often idiotic, so a pre-build city doesn't have to be tremendous to achieve its goal. I think we should switch Salzburg to a bank pre-build (before Enter is pressed, since it's about to complete a pikeman), mine its two unimproved hills (there are four workers in the vicinity), and eventually micromanage it so that it's a size seven city with no food surplus producing 14 shields before corruption, and presumably 12 after corruption. This would give us a real chance at the Newton-Smith double play.

I agree that we should skip as many optional mediaeval techs as possible, and particularly Military Tradition, which is almost useless given our current aims and priorities. We may have to research Economics ourselves to protect our Smith pre-build, but other than our goal should be to proceed directly to the IA.
 
Just for information, I am not aware of any occurrence of a GA triggered by two scientific wonders in this situation (although I haven't done any test myself, I must admit).

As far as I can tell, you will need a scientific and a militaristic wonder for your GA -and you will need to build a wonder yourselves if you happened to capture any of the necessary ones.

EDIT: No problems with playing 12 turns each, of course.
 
Well, I would have sworn that I have seen the double-wonder GA personally. In fact, i am convinved. However, I could be wrong (it wouldn't be the first time!) - I will try to verify this in a different game later this evening if possible.

I guess we can always build Leo's ;)

Tal
 
Ok, double-posting again ;)

I only had a few minutes to check in earlier but I've given it more of a look this time round.

First off, good turns NP. In answer to your question on how radical we are being in terms of giving away techs, we are being Radical, capital R! But not suicidal ;)

I like the idea for a Newton/Smith double pre-build, as I think both of those wonders will be hugely influential in how successful we are at this variant. I like them both in normal play, but in this game, their worth is doubled.

As for the turn order, it's now 24 hours after NP posted his turns. So... This is technically a "got it" although I will play the 12 turns in the morning, as it's a little late now for fully clear thought. So, if GK gets back in the next 12 hours, and posts, I'll wait, otherwise the log will be posted Sunday morning GMT.

Tal
 
Triple post, over 18 hours... Not exactly a busy thread!

Just starting my turns now, will post log soon...


Tal
 
Pre-flight

France is building four wonders concurrently... Hmm! Way to go, AI :lol: Also France does not as yet have saltpeter hooked up, although I imagine this will be a priority now. Notice the positioning of Poitiers - it's just all wrong! Claims 3 desert in its 9-tile start, where moving one south would claim none. I wondered about that, and then thought - Middle Ages Resource!! What's the betting that Bizen has Oil or Rubber or something? :rolleyes:

Salzburg>bank

Re knights. I'm afraid I'm going to disagree about knights vs numbers. One reson we wanted decent units was to avoid having to have lots of units which we have to support under Republic/Democracy. I actually started disbanding warriors on my last set of turns, as it was hurting our science... Currently we lose 81gpt in unit support. 60% science only = 210... :sad:

France are being silly, asking 500g for Furs, and refusing to sell MT... Trade Astronomy to China for WM+40g, Japan for WM+34g, and gift it to Russia and England. Let's face it. They aren't going to discover it on their own before the game is over! Keep banking back for a bit

IBT - :sleep:

Turn 1 - 690 AD

Dortmund courthouse>marketplace

MM around Nuremberg and New Leipzig to alleviate corruption. General worker moves...

IBT - Eastward settler movement from France and Russia.

Turn 2 - 700 AD

Berlin settler>settler, Hamburg>marketplace, Hannover could do with a temple, but start a Uni instead. Bonn market>Uni.

Settle town in the far east end. AI suggest we call it Berlin2! Rename it Talsburg ;) Too many settlers down in that corner now, am thinking or changing production in Berlin from settler.

France has managed to build 4 road tiles in 2 turns to hook up that saltpeter. Look out for French aggression soon! Gift japan banking, as no one else has given him it...

IBT - People finally offer to build us a nice palace - decide to get them to mow the lawn and put some steps in!

Turn 3 - 710 AD

Grrr! We need that damn FP! This corruption is killing us :sad:

IBT - English>SunTzu (good luck), Chinese>Leo's

Turn 4 - 720 AD

French now have Navigation! :eek: They are doing better than us at tech races... I assume they have been selling techs for gpt...

Lots of French Swords in the east still, plenty more settlers arriving too...

IBT - conscript barbarian kills our elite fortified warrior... Carries off 20g. Bugger.

Turn 5 - 730 AD

Moving the defenders up to the islands, 2 knights are now back... Worker stuff. Turn tax rate up to get Demo a turn earlier.

IBT - :sleep:

Turn 6 - 740 AD

Democracy is here. *gulp* Real life is going to interrupt for a while here, so I will post this and see if I get any advice!
 
OK, back. Decide we are really not going anywhere with Republic so i bite the bullet and decide to burn the rest of my turns in anarchy :crazyeye:

Draw a 3 turn Revolution :smug:

Turn 7 - 750 AD

Now then. France are slightly more eager to talk business now that we have Democracy. I decide to trade Democracy for Navigation, Music Theory, 40g and 10gpt. This will bring us up to parity, help negate the effects of the revolution, and get us back on track, I hope. It will also enable us to use more wonders as prebuilds, as I dont think Salzburg's bank will last long enough. Also, now that Berlin is no longer a settler pump, that will be a fantastic production site.

Music Theory to India for 40g, Russia for 30g, China offer 20g plus 4gpt, gift it to England. Will do Navigation in a turn or two, maybe try to get some luxuries from the "New World"

Saltpeter near Leipzig now roaded, and the border will expand in 3 turns. Didn't really time that well, how inelegant.


IBT - nada

Turn 8 - 760 AD

Found another island city, Scoutsburg ;) I just don't do cities with numbers in them. From now on, every team member gets a personal city!

IBT - Novgorod founded in the east, not sure there will be anywhere left for our settler... Hamburg is rioting like mad, but has no food reserves, so not much I can do :rolleyes:

Turn 9 - 770 AD

China has Democracy, I imagine France has been silly... :sigh:

Just realised that food doesn't matter in Anarchy. Presumably people eat each other... Hire a clown in Hamburg.

Gift Democracy to the world. I know that this might seem silly. However, it will help the tech pace the world over, hopefully, make wars harder to sustain for the AI, so hopefully Russia and England can finally bury the hatchet. Also, at the rate France was researching, it was hardly going to remain a secret for long, so selling to France and gifting to the rest helps us with techs, cash, income and popularity, as well as maintaining a pretty fearsome overall tech pace :)

IBT - Revolution ends! [party] Nearly click on Despotism for new government :eek:

Turn 10 - 780 AD

Some of the cities nearer Berlin have had a major leap in productivity. However New Berlin remains as crappy as ever!

Economics in 6 turns. Gold holding steady. Can now maintain 70% science. New uber-worker looking good. However, beginning to experience happiness issues in some cities. The options seem to be temples or a trade for luxuries.

Navigation to China for dyes, then round the others for chump change or gift-wrapped...

Do a city check, get rid of clowns... Things look okay...

IBT - zip

Turn 11 - 790 AD

Not much really, even more worker turns than usual, since the pace of these arduous tasks has improved dramatically :)

IBT - yawn

Turn 12 - 800 AD

Munich Uni built, also Bremen Uni. Science is beginning to flourish. Lots of worker moves, and that's it!
 
Quick wrap-up post...

70% science is now 324 beakers, whereas a short time ago, 60% was 210. I am pleased with this increase.

I haven't really increased the military, but maybe a few more knights and muskets would be useful. Get rid of some of those old warriors :)

Economics arrives shortly, then it's a beeline for Theory of Gravity and the Industrial Age.


Tal
 
Just been looking at the score charts for the game. Could we be the only ones going for the variant? We are so far behind due to not having had a successful war with the resultant land expansion, that I think that everybody else must have shunned the variant here. Some people have won by 850 AD :lol:
 
Top Bottom