End of Empires - N3S III

Thlayli said:

A response to my diplo would be most appreciated.

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Sorry, we were trying to develop a bureaucracy and really needed a test subject for our new procrastination techniques (also, my allies are dodging the issue).

North King said:

One has to remember that nationalism has not been invented in this NES and may well never be invented.

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Arguably the Uggor idea of the Great Family, in its more Uggor-centric interpretation, might count as proto-nationalism, even though a) it has other possible interpretations (i.e. universalism), b) those other interpretations are likely to prevail if all goes to plan and c) it's also the main idea enabling tribal particularism. Still, the very existence of a theoretically overarching "national" identity among the Families/clans seems like a step in that direction.

Masada said:

So the short answer is Aya'se.

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Righto. So we will just be turning that into this universe's "Caesar", then.

A subset of that requirement would look at the Seshweay equivalent of the mana tangata (authority by blood) of the individual to the Ancestors, although that isn't as important as it once was.

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Obviously that's rather more important to us (our entire society runs on mostly imaginary blood links and ethnocentric arrogance), though I doubt we will need to borrow any of your doctrines for that. We still might quote your writings to validate the universal and eternal correctness of our official social rules and ideology, ofcourse.

(1) mistaking your ancestors for the Ancestors, since the latter tend to be pretty generic really;

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How does that sit with our ancestors being highly-distinct zoomorphic deities that receive highly public bloody animal sacrifices on a semi-regular basis?

Another potential "cross-cultural diplomacy" problem I could see is that your rulers seem to be a tad bit more divine, while ours are simply better than all their subordinates (and are the closest living descendant of the best god ever, but, ofcourse, most everyone and everything is descended from him and more directly from his many god-children).

@das: Patience is my middle name.

Ahah. I read your description of the old Accan power structure, Azale. I had no idea that the Censoratta were wearing masks long before the Satar came. Integrating the Accan and Satar power structures might work better than I thought.

I'm going to send you a long PM of stuff before I leave on Friday.

das said:

Righto. So we will just be turning that into this universe's "Caesar", then.

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For non-adherents, sure. For the faithful, emphatically no, not at this stage.

das said:

Obviously that's rather more important to us (our entire society runs on mostly imaginary blood links and ethnocentric arrogance), though I doubt we will need to borrow any of your doctrines for that. We still might quote your writings to validate the universal and eternal correctness of our official social rules and ideology, ofcourse.

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It isn't as important as it once was, considering that the majority of the faithful were and are probably not ethnically Seshweay. I would be surprised if Seshweay literati even deign to acknowledge that you have a literary tradition, they've only just accepted that Faron literature might have some sort of intrinsic value and I suspect that's only because so many of them spent time in Exile there straight after the conflagration that was the Third Republic.

das said:

How does that sit with our ancestors being highly-distinct zoomorphic deities that receive highly public bloody animal sacrifices on a semi-regular basis?

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The whole Zeus as Apollo thing has been done for centuries. Somewhere along the line the Ancestors must have adsorbed animals. I'm fairly sure I hinted at that possibility early on anyway.

das said:

Another potential "cross-cultural diplomacy" problem I could see is that your rulers seem to be a tad bit more divine, while ours are simply better than all their subordinates (and are the closest living descendant of the best god ever, but, ofcourse, most everyone and everything is descended from him and more directly from his many god-children).

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There's only be two divine rulers - Aya'se and Aitah. (The Matah was never a ruler and thus does not count). They're the exception not the rule. The Ancestors are not considered to have been divine in quite the same way and have effectively demoted courtesy of Aitah.

EDIT: I wouldn't rule out someone getting threatened with being hung drawn and quartered when they return. Suffice to say that taking it back is likely to cause confusion and problems.

Okay, I'll give Tars a shot.

Oh hello! I'm the local big power you are allied against

Thlayli said:

@das: Patience is my middle name.

Ahah. I read your description of the old Accan power structure, Azale. I had no idea that the Censoratta were wearing masks long before the Satar came. Integrating the Accan and Satar power structures might work better than I thought.

I'm going to send you a long PM of stuff before I leave on Friday.

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Sorry my MSN cut out a few days ago, I was basically working on 30 minute internet intervals for the last 2 days.

I couldve sworn I told you about the mask thing though

Abaddon said:

Oh hello! I'm the local big power you are allied against

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Thats almost enough to make me switch, but I won't.

~Darkening~ said:

The Thorsrdyn of Evyn demands the surrender of the Duke of Shu. His refusal will see the destruction of his people and their end in their homes.

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The Duke of Shu is willing to negotiate peace with The Thorsrdyn of Evyn. What are your conditions for peace? Will you allow the Duchy of Shu to remain independent as your vassal?

Nope!

Abaddon said:

Don't worry, Astira has managed to avoid our lustful gaze.

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We need a formal statement, with Astria spelled correctly and Sira included.

Nope!

I've lost Cuiv's PM about Maninism, otherwise I'd volunteer something.

Aitahism - Syncretic, evangelist cult containing elements from lots of different popular religions. Seshweay-oriented.

Iralliam - Monotheistic religion generally worshiping Opporia, but also a wide pantheon of semi-divine saints, spirits, demons, etc. Krato/Moti-oriented.

Ardavan - Monotheistic religion generally worshiping Taleldil, emphasis on meditation and solitary enhancement. Satar-oriented.

Actually, it's Opporia. Sorry for giving you the wrong name

No problemo. Edited.

Shadowbound said:

I've lost Cuiv's PM about Maninism, otherwise I'd volunteer something.

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A short summary would look like this:

Maninism - Evangelist nontheist spiritualism in which the corruption of souls poses a threat to greater existence itself. Originally Gallatene, now spread to other cultures.

I could dig up the PM for a (much) longer description.

Also, some interesting new knowledge about the Dulama Empire. Apparently it's undergoing some instability/barbarian invasions and contains two different religions. And there is enough trade going on to its west that there is a major trading hub at the westernmost edge known.

Interesting indeed. Clearly the Dulama are not alone.

Those one-sentence descriptions should go on the front page. Also, we should get culture descriptions up there, and eventually a cultural map would be good.

Cult of Haiao - Decentralized and largely secular belief system centered in the belief in the Holy Sun, as well as a collection of Thaeraia (Earth Spirits) and Coraia (Water Spirits), with a focus on community ideals and personal responsibility. Faron-Oriented.

Posted by Theige
The Duke of Shu is willing to negotiate peace with The Thorsrdyn of Evyn. What are your conditions for peace? Will you allow the Duchy of Shu to remain independent as your vassal?

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The Thorsrdyn of Evyn sends word to the Duke of Shu

Know it that the mercy of the Law-Giver is generous and immeasurable; both to those who earn his favor, and those that fall to his will. Your request, however, has put him into a difficult situation: should he grant you favor, what is to say that you would not aid his enemies in their fight against his rule? The Thorsrdyn has put this question to the highest of his advisors, and from them has gathered an appropriate answer. Let it be known that the Thorsrdyn will accept your current rule in name of his own in consideration of several conditions. First and foremost is that all peoples under your domain cease their objections to his highest stature, and their acceptance of his will as law. Second is the willingness of your people to serve amongst the Thorsrdyn's armies and for your people to pay its share of his rightful taxes. Third is the immediate presence of your armies in joint resistance against those that continue their fight against the Law-Giver: the Ming duchy of Liang.

The Thorsrdyn considers this to be a test of the oath of the Duke of Shu. Send your men to fight alongside the Empire's, and let them do battle with the ones they called brothers. Should these conditions be met, should your armies prove their worth and support for the Thorsrdyn against the Liang, you will receive his full mercy. Note, however, that should you fail his test, or attempt any betrayal of the Evyn armies, the word given will be to erase your state- and its very people- from the fabric of history. He will tolerate no offense from the Shu duchy, and if done, it will be set ablaze.

The Thorsrdyn's mercy is generous. If the Duke passes his standard, then he will be considered worthy of such vassalage. His reward will be the Thorsrdyn's favor, and his mighty protection against any that dare stand against him. In addition a portion of the Duke's lands will returned to him, the lands along the lower Rhon, beginning with its mouth and heading inland until its meeting with the Weinan. Above this point the land will remain property of the Empire, as punishment for the Duchy's stand against the will of the Law-Giver.

OOC: Ytauzi: a northern faith based around anti-deism, favoring a belief in a Tao-ish system referred to as the Alianti. Primarily Evyni.