Civics Improvements Suggestions

Vokarya said:

I really don't want any more civic categories at this time, and I'd also like to leave our current civics the way they are now. Each new category adds a new dimension of complexity to the civics picture. I think we are at just the right level of overall complexity for the base mod and we should leave additional levels of complexity for modmods. That way, you don't have to handle super-amounts of new stuff all at once.

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Yepp! Vokarya and I have different goals and ideas of how the game should look like. That's why I said that I'd rather stay with just the modmod.

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Cosmopolitan:
I donno... I can live with it, but never felt the need of a new civic in that category.

Shadow War:
Oh, please no! Cold war is MAD.
Warfare has already too many civics. We don't need any more, IMO.

Just saw a very smart solution for Mercenaries in an other mod - I think it was History in the Making.
Your units gain no XP from any other source (civic, building or military instructor), but start with Combat I and II, and a third promotion I don't remember.
Maybe starting with 3 promotions for free would be too much, but the general mechanic seems very good: If you use mercenaries, they come with their own Xp and receive none from you.
Could we use that too, please?

I am currently looking at all the civics to figure out how to construct the three new ones I want to add (Cosmopolitan, Shadow War, and a modified Hive). I noticed several things that don't currently feel right. I'd like to reduce the number of bullet points on some civics if I can.

The first is the modifier for <iRevEnvironmentalProtection>. This is a percentage change to your National Stability modifier that is found on certain Economy civics (it could be used with other civics, but it isn't).

The current values of this Environmental Protection number are:

• 0% for Slavery, Coinage, Corporatist, Post-Scarcity
• -1% for Barter, Guilds, Mercantile, Free Market, Planned, Regulated
• +10% for Green

This feels wrong in several places. First, I don't think this should be applied to any civic before the Industrial Era (Free Market is close enough that it is appropriate here). Second, I don't think 1% is a good number to use. 1% would be a fraction of a point of RevIndex changes. Third, Corporatist and Free Market should be worse than Regulated or Post-Scarcity.

This would make a much better curve.

• 0% for Barter, Slavery, Coinage, Guilds, Mercantile, Planned
• -2% for Free Market
• -3% for Corporatist
• +2% for Regulated
• +5% for Post-Scarcity
• +10% for Green

Vokarya said:

I am currently looking at all the civics to figure out how to construct the three new ones I want to add (Cosmopolitan, Shadow War, and a modified Hive). I noticed several things that don't currently feel right. I'd like to reduce the number of bullet points on some civics if I can.

The first is the modifier for <iRevEnvironmentalProtection>. This is a percentage change to your National Stability modifier that is found on certain Economy civics (it could be used with other civics, but it isn't).

The current values of this Environmental Protection number are:

• 0% for Slavery, Coinage, Corporatist, Post-Scarcity
• -1% for Barter, Guilds, Mercantile, Free Market, Planned, Regulated
• +10% for Green

This feels wrong in several places. First, I don't think this should be applied to any civic before the Industrial Era (Free Market is close enough that it is appropriate here). Second, I don't think 1% is a good number to use. 1% would be a fraction of a point of RevIndex changes. Third, Corporatist and Free Market should be worse than Regulated or Post-Scarcity.

This would make a much better curve.

• 0% for Barter, Slavery, Coinage, Guilds, Mercantile, Planned
• -2% for Free Market
• -3% for Corporatist
• +2% for Regulated
• +5% for Post-Scarcity
• +10% for Green

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Looks very good to me

I'd invert Green and Post-Scarcity, but beyond that, looks sensible.

I also have a few suggestions to make regarding the Church civic. Some of the things that I want require DLL support.

The first is that I think the current health mechanic of +1 health, +1 for each Monastery, is clunky. We have to write out every single building that is affected. I think a more appropriate mechanic would be +3 health in cities with State Religion. This would require defining a tag for <iStateReligionHealth> that would be a mirror of the current <iStateReligionHappiness>. I can't DLL mod, so I can't do this myself, but I don't think it would be that difficult to code.

The second relates to another XML tag. The tag is <iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>. This is the tag that allows a civic to influence the rate of growth of any improvement that upgrades to another. In BTS, this is used by the Emancipation civic to double the growth rate of improvements in the Cottage line. In AND, the ONLY civic using this tag is Church, and only to the tune of 10%. I think some other civics should use this. I think Planned and/or Communalism would be good bets for this tag.

The third suggestion related to the text for this tag. This tag currently lists every improvement that is upgradeable. The tag cannot actually specify any particular improvement to speed up or slow down. It applies one number to all improvements that can naturally upgrade. This was acceptable in BTS because the only improvements that could upgrade were the Cottage line. We have many more improvements that are upgradeable, and so the text line is much longer. The routine that lists the improvements is lines 8682-8690 of CvGameTextMgr.cpp. I think this routine should be taken out and the string TXT_KEY_CIVIC_IMPROVEMENT_UPGRADE be replaced by a fixed string that says %D1_Mod%% Growth for Improvements and nothing else. That will make the civic easier to understand at a glance.

Those sound interesting.

Vokarya said:

I also have a few suggestions to make regarding the Church civic. Some of the things that I want require DLL support.

The first is that I think the current health mechanic of +1 health, +1 for each Monastery, is clunky...

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I agree with this. It will also eliminate the massive health penalty involved in building schools (which obsoletes the health-providing Monasteries), which makes no sense at all.

Cheers, A.

aggri1 said:

I agree with this. It will also eliminate the massive health penalty involved in building schools (which obsoletes the health-providing Monasteries), which makes no sense at all.

Cheers, A.

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Same here.


I also like the idea that Planned might benefit from increasing growth of improvements, since that civic always seemed kinda on the near-useless side. I don't think its civic building was all that great either honestly.

Vokarya said:

I also have a few suggestions to make regarding the Church civic. Some of the things that I want require DLL support.

The first is that I think the current health mechanic of +1 health, +1 for each Monastery, is clunky. We have to write out every single building that is affected. I think a more appropriate mechanic would be +3 health in cities with State Religion. This would require defining a tag for <iStateReligionHealth> that would be a mirror of the current <iStateReligionHappiness>. I can't DLL mod, so I can't do this myself, but I don't think it would be that difficult to code.

The second relates to another XML tag. The tag is <iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>. This is the tag that allows a civic to influence the rate of growth of any improvement that upgrades to another. In BTS, this is used by the Emancipation civic to double the growth rate of improvements in the Cottage line. In AND, the ONLY civic using this tag is Church, and only to the tune of 10%. I think some other civics should use this. I think Planned and/or Communalism would be good bets for this tag.

The third suggestion related to the text for this tag. This tag currently lists every improvement that is upgradeable. The tag cannot actually specify any particular improvement to speed up or slow down. It applies one number to all improvements that can naturally upgrade. This was acceptable in BTS because the only improvements that could upgrade were the Cottage line. We have many more improvements that are upgradeable, and so the text line is much longer. The routine that lists the improvements is lines 8682-8690 of CvGameTextMgr.cpp. I think this routine should be taken out and the string TXT_KEY_CIVIC_IMPROVEMENT_UPGRADE be replaced by a fixed string that says %D1_Mod%% Growth for Improvements and nothing else. That will make the civic easier to understand at a glance.

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Sounds good, but I might need some days, probably next week it's easier.

I like the Public Works civic a lot. I wind up using it quite a bit. What I don't like about it is the feeling that it is a little "disjointed". Public Works has some buildings that get faster production and a few that get increased health.

Public Works provides +50% production for:

• Sewer System
• Water Treatment Plant
• Waste Digester
• Public Transportation
• Personal Rapid Train

Public Works provides +1 health for:

• Aqueduct
• Water Treatment Plant
• Bath House

I think Public Works should emphasize construction speed over additional health. When it comes to health buildings, there are buildings that rely on trained personnel (like Hospital) and buildings that do not (like Aqueduct). I can't really understand boosting non-staffed buildings. Boosting staffed buildings makes sense in that your civic funds these buildings, and the benefits go away if you change civics. So I think that instead of boosting health, Public Works should boost the production speed of Aqueduct, Artesian Well, and Bath House. Water Treatment Plant is already boosted.

The other thing that I considered somewhat is making Public Works apply to all buildings, replacing the 50% construction bonus to certain buildings with +25% production in all cities balanced by -25% military unit production.

Maybe you could combine both options by moving the +1 health to the "+50% production" buildings and then making the +25%/-25% production a general modifier.

Arakhor said:

Maybe you could combine both options by moving the +1 health to the "+50% production" buildings and then making the +25%/-25% production a general modifier.

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The adjustment to general building production would replace the +50% bonuses. I don't want to have both.

The Guilds civic could use some paring down. It's saddled with some negatives that I don't think are appropriate. If we break it down into positives and negatives, this is what we get.


However, some of these positives aren't as big as they seem. +50% production of Estate and Villa is only meaningful if you are running the appropriate civics (Feudal for Estate, Patrician or Bourgeois for Villa) and both of these buildings consume 1 Citizen, so I find it difficult to really use them. Rush with gold is actually available to EVERY Economy civic between Coinage and Regulated (only Barter/Slavery and Green/Post-Scarcity are exempt) so this isn't that valuable either. I'm not really sure if "No Foreign Corporations" is a positive or a negative; I rate it as a positive only because it prevents you from getting your economy attacked by another civ.

I'm also not sure what the revolution distance and nationality changes are worth either. Right now, I think it's a positive because distance penalties have been raised and nationality penalties are harder to come by early on.

What I don't like is the increase in maintenance costs for cities. I think adjustments in those categories should be limited to Government and Rule civics, with maybe some possibility in Society civics. Hive would probably offer reduced maintenance, but I don't think it would cover every possible category.

So I think we should eliminate the maintenance increases and lower the corporate maintenance adjustment down to -10%. I think of Guilds as always worth switching to in order to get your Gold and Silver back that was lost when using the Coinage civic.

The reason to lower the corporate maintenance is that most of the economy civics change corporate maintenance in some way or outright block corporations. There isn't much of a baseline.

I'd be happy with knocking off the culture bonus and the building production bonuses too. That would reduce the total number of bullet points on this civic. If you go back to BTS, no civic has more than 4 bullet points. Only Environmentalism and State Property have 4, and Free Religion, Mercantilism, and Nationhood have 3. We have multiple civics where the total number of bullet points are in the teens. (I think Monarchy is the worst right now.) Some of this is due to Revolutions and civic buildings. On one level, I can see how it is interesting to work through the implications of every civic on every possible adjustment, but on the other hand, too many of these points and it gets to be really confusing.

Vokarya said:

The adjustment to general building production would replace the +50% bonuses. I don't want to have both.

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That's what I meant. Have the +1 health instead of the +50% production and then have the general +/-25% modifier.

Not sure whether this belongs in here or in the Bugs thread: Corporate (Welfare) civic provides production bonus to just some of the Corporation buildings. I think it should be all of them.

Cheers, A.

aggri1 said:

Not sure whether this belongs in here or in the Bugs thread: Corporate (Welfare) civic provides production bonus to just some of the Corporation buildings. I think it should be all of them.

Cheers, A.

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I noticed that too. I don't think that Corporate as a Welfare civic is really that much different from Private and the two should be merged. Private needs some help as it is. I think it is too weak. The Corporatist Economy civic is a good idea and we can keep it and give it the Corporate name.

Private/Corporate is a pair of civics that I don't think are different enough to warrant being separate. The other place where I think we can make a cut is Nobility/Patrician/Senate. I think the overlap between the three civics is significant enough that Patrician can go.

More cuts sound great; less civic choices means less frustration over balancing each and every one of them.

thegreekweegee said:

More cuts sound great; less civic choices means less frustration over balancing each and every one of them.

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For me, it's a matter of niche and finding what can a civic do that isn't covered by the existing categories. There are a few that I specifically created. Warrior Caste and Mercenaries are meant to be early alternatives to Conscription. Single Party and Personality Cult cover modern totalitarianism; Atheist is for the outright technocrat. Mobilization is the "total war" civic; Conscription covers drafting units but not a comprehensive war economy. Virtual is a future implementation of direct democracy.

The later eras are the ones that I feel are lacking in civics and need some more choices. I'm creating my own spreadsheet to figure out what is applicable for the future Cosmopolitan, Shadow War, and Hive civics. All three of these are Modern Era or later. Cosmopolitan is the Foreign Affairs civic for diplomats. Shadow War is the Military civic for espionage experts. Hive is the Society civic for repressive future dystopias. All of these fit into niches that aren't covered by current civics.

Here's something I just came across. The Mercantilism civic uses a tag for <iSharedCivicTradeRouteModifier>. Its effect is supposed to be -25 trade income from nations with same civic.

Does this tag even do anything any more, now that trade routes have been replaced by connectedness? I tried looking through the sources files and I could only find references in the CvInfos files. My guess is that this was taken out of the source files along with everything else that depended on trade routes. If this is true, then it's a bullet point we don't need.