Technology Research Explained....

Shillen said:

Well that's kind of what I'm interested in most is the value of the tech when trading. I'd like to know if the techs devalue as I trade them around to other AI's. But I guess someone else will have to figure that one out. I'm not tech savvy enough myself.

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Ah, well, that's a WHOLE other subject. Which I might sometime tackle, if I have the time.

This thread is only devoted to Technology Research !

Req

Requies said:

Clarified hopefully. Please let me know if this makes it clearer.
Req

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The modifications to the article have made it a lot better (and it was already good). If you write an article, then there are always things that are totally clear to yourself, but less clear to the readers that haven't thought about it that extensively. Good job!

DaviddesJ said:

I don't think the Foreign Advisor gives you any information about the techs of opposing civilizations until tech trading is enabled via Alphabet.

(Also, it may not give you any information in games with tech trading turned off---but I haven't played that variant, so I don't know.)

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And maybe it also helps to see if there are other civilizations that are far ahead of you. In the Foreign Advisor, you can only trade for those technologies that you can research at the moment. If the research bonus (caused by civilizations that know the technology) is already applied to technologies that are further down the tech tree, then you can see if someone has already researched it. I must remark that this can be a lot of calculations for something that is not that interesting to know.

kryszcztov said:

Didn't understand #3. As for #4, I disagree with you for the moment. For once, it SHOULD be the same as for hammers in a city (and here it is the same, the overflow of hammers that you get on the next turn are kept with the former modifiers). I will be totally against a difference between hammers and beakers. Now, I also think this is better, since the hammers/beakers were produced on a turn when you were building/researching something with some modifiers. The overflow is just stored, you know it beforehand, and so, no surprise next turn. As for more MM, it depends on what you want : if you want to get more hammers/beakers, then you'll have to delay the thing by 1 turn, which often means 1 turn of not-profitting from the building/unit/tech. On hard levels I'm sure it can sometimes be critical. It's a trade-off, you choose. And when you can run science at 100%, there's a cost for delaying the discovery, since you won't be able to run science higher on the next turn to catch back the delay.

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I also know about the production overflow and it's micromanagement repercussions and I also don't like it. (I agree that both production and research should be treated in the same way.) It has to do a bit at how you look at the game. I think of it as a continuous game, where the ruler can make some changes at some moments in time. So if the year counter moves from 1510 to 1520 and the research produced is twice the amount that is needed to finish a technology then the technology is finished in 1515 and you give orders to research a new technology with new bonusses for that new technology.
I can see that you see this differently and that's ok.
What I really don't like about it is that it offers advantages to micromanage. This can be valuable when you're not running 100% research but something like 70% research (because you need the money for city maintenance or upgrading units). In that case fluctuating the research between say 20%, 60% and 100% at the moments this is advantageous as described by Requies in his article (repercussions 3 and 4) will still allow you to invest the maximum amount in research while taking optimal advantage of the research bonusses. This is a kind of micromanagement that I don't like. It's not smart or something, it's just micromanagement.

Awesome article! I will now be looking for prequisite techs when trading for techs because they give me an advantage in researching.

Again fantastic job. Most usefull article ive read so far.

Well, the overflow really is like with hammers though... all screwy but it seems screwy in a new way. For the sake of Firaxis fixing with a patch, the way to avoid ANY MM encouraged/rewarded with the hammer/beaker overflow is

Overflow-Overflow*(ALL output bonuses)/(All output Bonuses+1)=Base added to next 'thing' (that should then get its own bonuses)


PS I think there is a way you can simplify the prerequisites formula
Prereq bonus=1+0.2 * number of 'OR' Tech requirements that you have

The way to check this would be with techs like Divine Right which have no 'OR' options, do they get the *1.2 for having those minimum no 'OR' requirements fulfilled or not? If not, then the above simplification is the actual system.

Krikkitone said:

Well, the overflow really is like with hammers though... all screwy but it seems screwy in a new way. For the sake of Firaxis fixing with a patch, the way to avoid ANY MM encouraged/rewarded with the hammer/beaker overflow is

Overflow-Overflow*(ALL output bonuses)/(All output Bonuses+1)=Base added to next 'thing' (that should then get its own bonuses)


PS I think there is a way you can simplify the prerequisites formula
Prereq bonus=1+0.2 * number of 'OR' Tech requirements that you have

The way to check this would be with techs like Divine Right which have no 'OR' options, do they get the *1.2 for having those minimum no 'OR' requirements fulfilled or not? If not, then the above simplification is the actual system.

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ALL techs except the starting ones give at least a 1.2 boost to research. This includes those techs with NO 'OR' requirements.

Req

awesome article here

I have to say I am a little overwhelmed by all those equations. But, at least i get a better grasp of what's going on.
So, getting optional techs from the AI will be very useful. Problem is, that the tech tree at the moment is too confusing to actually help much in this respect at the middle stages of the tech tree.

And if I understand this correctly, it will hurt to beeline for an advanced tech. If that's true, I think it should be modified. Wasn't the claim that the tech tree is now very flexible?

ThERat said:

awesome article here

I have to say I am a little overwhelmed by all those equations. But, at least i get a better grasp of what's going on.
So, getting optional techs from the AI will be very useful. Problem is, that the tech tree at the moment is too confusing to actually help much in this respect at the middle stages of the tech tree.

And if I understand this correctly, it will hurt to beeline for an advanced tech. If that's true, I think it should be modified. Wasn't the claim that the tech tree is now very flexible?

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Like almost all other aspects of the game, it's a tradeoff. If you beeline for a tech, it means that your research will have the least bonuses possible. However, you DO get the benefit of that tech quicker as well as the advantage of having that tech when others do not.

Req

Excellent article. Some of the repercussions are ... weird. I agree with Krikkitone's suggestion on a good fix. But it also helps clarify some questions/issues about how beakers are counted. And adds some strategy layers to the tech order questions, which was already pretty convoluted.

Knowledge is always good, though. Great work!

Arathorn

Requies said:

ALL techs except the starting ones give at least a 1.2 boost to research. This includes those techs with NO 'OR' requirements.

Req

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Too bad, that seemed like it might have been an easier way for them to do it. O well, so basically its 1.2 +0.2* 'extra prerequisites' for all non-starting techs.

So, tech MM in civ4 is still needed and actually more difficult.

Arathorn said:

Excellent article. Some of the repercussions are ... weird. I agree with Krikkitone's suggestion on a good fix. But it also helps clarify some questions/issues about how beakers are counted. And adds some strategy layers to the tech order questions, which was already pretty convoluted.

Knowledge is always good, though. Great work!

Arathorn

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Thanks for the kind words Arathorn, Willburn, and ThERat.

Oh, yes, and I came up with a 7th (ED: so that Roland's repercussion matches with 5th), kind of small, repercussion related to the early game.

Req

Roland Johansen said:

The modifications to the article have made it a lot better (and it was already good). If you write an article, then there are always things that are totally clear to yourself, but less clear to the readers that haven't thought about it that extensively. Good job!

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Thank you, and thank you for the contributions you made to it!

Roland Johansen said:

And maybe it also helps to see if there are other civilizations that are far ahead of you. In the Foreign Advisor, you can only trade for those technologies that you can research at the moment. If the research bonus (caused by civilizations that know the technology) is already applied to technologies that are further down the tech tree, then you can see if someone has already researched it. I must remark that this can be a lot of calculations for something that is not that interesting to know.

Click to expand...

Note: this will only occur if your turn count actually CHANGES (but, actually now that I think about it, it probably will, considering 1.2 is not an inconsiderate amount of multiplier to add). I think I'll update repercussion #5. ED: Hmmm, I was mixing my modifiers. It would be at min 1.01, so it might not be noticeable.... You would need to get to 1.05 AND have a research time more than 20 turns to make it show up....

Roland Johansen said:

I also know about the production overflow and it's micromanagement repercussions and I also don't like it. (I agree that both production and research should be treated in the same way.) It has to do a bit at how you look at the game. I think of it as a continuous game, where the ruler can make some changes at some moments in time. So if the year counter moves from 1510 to 1520 and the research produced is twice the amount that is needed to finish a technology then the technology is finished in 1515 and you give orders to research a new technology with new bonusses for that new technology.
I can see that you see this differently and that's ok.
What I really don't like about it is that it offers advantages to micromanage. This can be valuable when you're not running 100% research but something like 70% research (because you need the money for city maintenance or upgrading units). In that case fluctuating the research between say 20%, 60% and 100% at the moments this is advantageous as described by Requies in his article (repercussions 3 and 4) will still allow you to invest the maximum amount in research while taking optimal advantage of the research bonusses. This is a kind of micromanagement that I don't like. It's not smart or something, it's just micromanagement.

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I concur with this opinion. I'd rather handle the "big picture" things of Civ IV rather than the trivial, mundane ones which creep up just because a programmer got lazy .

Req

Requies said:

Note: this will only occur if your turn count actually CHANGES (but, actually now that I think about it, it probably will, considering 1.2 is not an inconsiderate amount of multiplier to add). I think I'll update repercussion #5. ED: Hmmm, I was mixing my modifiers. It would be at min 1.01, so it might not be noticeable.... You would need to get to 1.05 AND have a research time more than 20 turns to make it show up....

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To estimate the actual ingame research cost of a technology, you could do the following:
1) Reduce the science slider to 0% and acquire 1 scientist in your empire.
2) Note how many turns of research it takes to acquire the technology
3) If it takes 350 turns to research a technology, then the research costs are between 349*3+1=1048 and 350*3=1050.
4) Now you can look at the basic cost of the technology (say 1200) and see that your research bonus is between 1200/1050=1.143 and 1200/1148=1.145.
5) Comparing this with the research bonus that you should get from prerequisite technologies and other stuff, allows you to get a pretty accurate picture of the number of opponents that know the technology. Comparing that with the opponents that actually have the prerequisites of the technology, maybe even allow you to make an educated guess about which opponents have this technology.
6) The science slider was only lowered to estimate the actual cost of a technology. It can be moved back to its original setting.

The fact that I know how to find this information doesn't mean that I'm actually going to do it. It's by far too much work for my taste. But it can be done.
The programmers of Firaxis could remove the possibility of acquiring this information by not allowing the 'known by other civilizations modifier' to effect a technology that you can't research yet.

We Civfanatics will probably always find ways to micromanage this game, but the most rewarding ways of micromanagement should be removed from the game and replaced by actual strategic decisions. Civ4 has done a good job in removing some of the micromanagement, but some of it is still there.

Roland Johansen said:

To estimate the actual ingame research cost of a technology, you could do the following:
1) Reduce the science slider to 0% and acquire 1 scientist in your empire.
2) Note how many turns of research it takes to acquire the technology
3) If it takes 350 turns to research a technology, then the research costs are between 349*3+1=1048 and 350*3=1050.
4) Now you can look at the basic cost of the technology (say 1200) and see that your research bonus is between 1200/1050=1.143 and 1200/1148=1.145.
5) Comparing this with the research bonus that you should get from prerequisite technologies and other stuff, allows you to get a pretty accurate picture of the number of opponents that know the technology. Comparing that with the opponents that actually have the prerequisites of the technology, maybe even allow you to make an educated guess about which opponents have this technology.
6) The science slider was only lowered to estimate the actual cost of a technology. It can be moved back to its original setting.

The fact that I know how to find this information doesn't mean that I'm actually going to do it. It's by far too much work for my taste. But it can be done.
The programmers of Firaxis could remove the possibility of acquiring this information by not allowing the 'known by other civilizations modifier' to effect a technology that you can't research yet.

We Civfanatics will probably always find ways to micromanage this game, but the most rewarding ways of micromanagement should be removed from the game and replaced by actual strategic decisions. Civ4 has done a good job in removing some of the micromanagement, but some of it is still there.

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Ah, good point.... Heh, wasn't thinking too hard on that, I guess .

Req

I think one must be careful with any change/fix.A great game,such as this,must never have a single,sure,best strategy.
Best regards,

microbe said:

So, tech MM in civ4 is still needed and actually more difficult.

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Well to be fair to Firaxis, their carryover still decreases the reward for MM over no Carryover, but you are correct in that it is still there. (and ridiculously complex) and being fair to Firaxis also means being critical of the fact that they seem to not have a grasp of basic math.

Rep, great article! I still have a question. I remember Sirian said that to avoid an isolated civ becoming too backwards, a civ will receive the "other civ knowing this tech" bonus no matter whether it knows the knowledagable civ or not. But you say that a civ must meet others for the bonus. Are you absolutely sure about this? If you are correct, I feel a bit disappointed, because it means another so-called new feature is gone ...

Heroes said:

Rep, great article! I still have a question. I remember Sirian said that to avoid an isolated civ becoming too backwards, a civ will receive the "other civ knowing this tech" bonus no matter whether it knows the knowledagable civ or not. But you say that a civ must meet others for the bonus. Are you absolutely sure about this? If you are correct, I feel a bit disappointed, because it means another so-called new feature is gone ...

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Well, I'm not 100% sure about this (but then, who is in life about anything? ), but ALL the testing I've done, shows this effect.

If you or someone else has a save where someone is isolated, I could check to see if this effect exists.

Req

Spectacular article Requies. Thank you for spending what I am sure was a considerable amount of time figuring this out...and thanks even more for taking the time to document your findings so well.

The appreciation I feel toward you is even greater than the frustration I feel toward Firaxis for not mentioning these factors in the manual. And that means my appreciation is very, very high.

I would never expect Firaxis to give us the actual numbers, but they could have at least mentioned that knowing optional tech requirements affected research rate!

Requies said:

If you or someone else has a save where someone is isolated, I could check to see if this effect exists.

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I just looked at such a save, where i am in 1270AD, after a long war while isolated on a small island with one other civ. That civ is destroyed, and i met Victoria recently. Setting is Monarch, standard size, normal speed, 7 civs.

Everything seems to go as Requies said: for exemple, i skipped researching Meditation...which at such a late date, i expect more than one AI to have. However, the "number of civ" modifier is clearly 1.04, as should be expected from "1 known civ out of 7 starting civs knows the tech".

As a side note: i wonder if dead civs count or not? My destroyed neighbour was even more backwards than me, so i can't check on this save...but what would happen if he had researched Meditation before his death? Would the modifier be 1.04 or 1.08?

Roland Johansen said:

1) Reduce the science slider to 0% and acquire 1 scientist in your empire.
2) Note how many turns of research it takes to acquire the technology
3) If it takes 350 turns to research a technology, then the research costs are between 349*3+1=1048 and 350*3=1050.
4) Now you can look at the basic cost of the technology (say 1200) and see that your research bonus is between 1200/1050=1.143 and 1200/1148=1.145.
5) Comparing this with the research bonus that you should get from prerequisite technologies and other stuff, allows you to get a pretty accurate picture of the number of opponents that know the technology. Comparing that with the opponents that actually have the prerequisites of the technology, maybe even allow you to make an educated guess about which opponents have this technology.
6) The science slider was only lowered to estimate the actual cost of a technology. It can be moved back to its original setting.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure i understand that. From Req's article, i understood that the "number of civs" modifier was applied to the generated beakers, not the cost of the tech (and that is indeed the result i get in my saves).
If we use 1 scientist, we generate 3 beakers, then multiply by the number of civs modifier (between 1 and 1.3), and take the floor...which still gives 3. So the number of turns should not change, whatever the number of civs who knows the tech.

Thanks though for the idea...for the test described above, i set the research slider to 0, and then used from 1 to 8 scientist specialists to get a controlled amount of beakers.