Improvement Balancing

Well, you could try Sylvan Preserve or Arboreal Preserve, but Forest Preserve is just as good.
 
Personally I give Lumbermills a +2:hammers: base yield, to give them something meaningful over the Woodcutter, and to actually have a reason to keep all those forests around.
 
Forest Preserve has been a legal build on Jungle tiles ever since BTS (see screenshot). I'm not doing anything new. I am forging a connection between two improvements that I see as similar enough that one can be an evolution of the other. I like building these connections so that the complexity level doesn't get too far out of control.

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I understand that, it's that I get touchy over how the JC has been de-valued so much. I guess I should be glad it's not been totally removed. When that time comes around I will feel totally disconnected from AND.

And I still feel that the early game is just so very dry and basically you set the option for auto end turn and let the turns cycle cause it takes way too long to build even a simple fire pit or a worker. Send you initial warrior out to explore. set a path and let it cycle. Rinse repeat when you do get a worker and then set the worker to improve a tile (that even on Epic takes way too long).

Production is determined at the start of the game by how lucky you are when the game places your Settler. With out production the extra 2000 years/turns added really don't make any difference as it's generally 1500-800BC before you can get build times down under 10 turns for anything. Tile production is lower than ever and I Know this is the consensus to do this.

Maybe the team should consider eliminating those extra start years? I get so frustrated with the lack of movement (production and other aspects) thru the early game that it becomes very hard for me to even play a game of AND to 0AD.

JosEPh
 
I have now been looking at the forest/jungle improvements. This is difficult because there are so many additional factors to take into account:
  • Forest improvements do not cut down the forest, so the forest yield needs to be considered; however, maintaining the bonus prevents the player from considering other improvements that would provide a larger concentrated bonus. As an example, in BTS, Lumbermills only generate +2 production (with a Railroad) while Mines and Workshops go up to +3.
  • Forest improvements are the only improvements that get riverside bonuses. The amount of river coverage varies from map to map, so I'm judging the usual bonus of +1 production/+1 commerce to be worth +1 total yield. +1 commerce alone is worth +0.25 yield.
  • Some of these improvements provide health. Like unhealth, I think this is worth +0.5 yield.

On riverside plots, forested plots do not provide +1 commece. Hence, a forested riverside grassland will be 2 food 1 hammer, while a non forested one will be 2 food 1 commerce. Thus, the extra yield from forest is not always valid.

It is also why they get riverside bonus, because all other improvements get them naturally by chopping down the forests.

The main con of keeping forests and jungles is the huge defensive bonus to attackers.
Forests provide health, while jungles are unhealthy. Not much reason to keep a jungle intact if the improvements aren't worth the risk.
 
On riverside plots, forested plots do not provide +1 commece. Hence, a forested riverside grassland will be 2 food 1 hammer, while a non forested one will be 2 food 1 commerce. Thus, the extra yield from forest is not always valid.

It is also why they get riverside bonus, because all other improvements get them naturally by chopping down the forests.

The main con of keeping forests and jungles is the huge defensive bonus to attackers.
Forests provide health, while jungles are unhealthy. Not much reason to keep a jungle intact if the improvements aren't worth the risk.

I did not know about forest negating river, so that is a factor. However, there are some changes to features in AND. Forests and jungles do not provide nearly as much defense, with only +25%. Jungles also are not unhealthy. They are actually neutral. Forests are reduced to +1/4 health as well.
 
I understand that, it's that I get touchy over how the JC has been de-valued so much. I guess I should be glad it's not been totally removed. When that time comes around I will feel totally disconnected from AND.

And I still feel that the early game is just so very dry and basically you set the option for auto end turn and let the turns cycle cause it takes way too long to build even a simple fire pit or a worker. Send you initial warrior out to explore. set a path and let it cycle. Rinse repeat when you do get a worker and then set the worker to improve a tile (that even on Epic takes way too long).

Production is determined at the start of the game by how lucky you are when the game places your Settler. With out production the extra 2000 years/turns added really don't make any difference as it's generally 1500-800BC before you can get build times down under 10 turns for anything. Tile production is lower than ever and I Know this is the consensus to do this.

Maybe the team should consider eliminating those extra start years? I get so frustrated with the lack of movement (production and other aspects) thru the early game that it becomes very hard for me to even play a game of AND to 0AD.

JosEPh

I wasn't planning on reducing Jungle Camp any more, just adjusting a little (even trading one resource for another). I do believe that just about every building and improvement should get a chance to upgrade. Not many structures stay constant through all history. I would probably give Farm and Watermill some kind of upgrade but I don't want to add any new improvements at this point. I do agree that building costs seem very high to get started and it isn't until the Medieval Era that the game settles into a groove.
 
The last two improvements that need looking at are the Groundwater Well and the Geothermal Factory. These are both late-game improvements but need very different adjustments.

Groundwater Well
This is an extremely weak improvement by the standards of the game. As far as I can tell, the only time Groundwater Well ever gets built is on a Desert tile that can't get anything else. It can be built on Grassland, Plains, Desert, or Marsh, but in just about any of these cases, another improvement would provide higher yields. In GW's defense, though, it does not clear Forests or Jungles, but in that case you would get much better yields from a Treefarm. Groundwater Well also spreads Irrigation, but so does Farm, and Farm does it with better food production. Groundwater Well does not produce fresh water. (I tried using <bAddsFreshWater> as defined in the terrain schema, but it doesn't seem to do anything for improvements. It is used for Oasis and Ice features to provide water.)

So what I think we should do is give Groundwater Well a set of tech bonuses.
  • Default: +2 food, +1 commerce
  • +1 food, +2 commerce at Hydroponics
    • Net: +3 food, +3 commerce (total +4.5)
  • +1 food at Ecological Engineering
    • Net: +4 food, +3 commerce (total +5.5)
  • +2 commerce at Weather Control
    • Net: +4 food, +5 commerce (total +6.5)

Geothermal Factory
Unlike Groundwater Well, Geothermal Factory is just a little bit too good. It out-produces Mine and Workshop without giving any unhealth; that's not good overall. I think what should be done is reduce the base production from 6 to 4, remove the +1 production from Teleportation, and reduce the bonuses from Routes down to +1 production/+1 commerce (Maglev and Jumplane currently give +2 production/+1 commerce, but Maglev is available long before Geothermal can be built, so that's my default assumption). This results in the following:

  • Default: +4 production
  • +1 production, +1 commerce from Route
    • Net: +5 production, +1 commerce (total +5.5)
  • +2 commerce from Planetary Economics
    • Net: +5 production, +3 commerce (total +6.5)
which is equal to a Workshop and just better than a Mine.

Here's a final comparison table for all the improvements.
Farm Mine Workshop Cottage Watermill Windmill Jungle Camp Woodcutter Groundwater Well Geothermal Factory
Ancient +1 +0.75 N/A +1 N/A N/A +3 +1 N/A N/A
Classical +1 +2.75 +1 +1.5 +1 +1.5 +3 +2 N/A N/A
Medieval +2 +2.75 +2 +2.25 +2 +2.5 +3 +2 N/A N/A
Renaissance +2 +4 +3 +3 +3.5 +3.5 +4.25 +2 N/A N/A
Industrial +3 +4 +5.5 +4.5 +4.5 +4.5 +4.25 +4 N/A N/A
Modern +4.5 +5 +6.5 +5.5 +4.5 +5 +4.75 +6 +4.5 N/A
Transhuman +6 +6 +6.5 +6.5 +6.5 +6.5 +7.25 +7.25 +6.5 +6.5
 
Personally I give Lumbermills a +2:hammers: base yield, to give them something meaningful over the Woodcutter, and to actually have a reason to keep all those forests around.

I see Woodcutter/Lumbermill as a niche improvement to stick on forested swamp tiles that aren't next to freshwater. Is is the only thing you can build there(for a long time). I would give them a +1 hammer with a later tech to stay relevant.
 
Groundwater Well
This is an extremely weak improvement by the standards of the game. As far as I can tell, the only time Groundwater Well ever gets built is on a Desert tile that can't get anything else. It can be built on Grassland, Plains, Desert, or Marsh, but in just about any of these cases, another improvement would provide higher yields. In GW's defense, though, it does not clear Forests or Jungles, but in that case you would get much better yields from a Treefarm. Groundwater Well also spreads Irrigation, but so does Farm, and Farm does it with better food production.

I would stop farms from spreading irrigation or put a limit where you can only go two farms deep off of a freshwater source. You shouldn't be allowed to spread it everywhere forever. I think that is the real balance mistake here.
 
Well I didn't (wouldn't) mind Groundwater Well to be buildable only on dessert tiles, being the relief improvement that finally makes dessert useful.

Anyway good job so far. As always :)
 
Deserts are useful as soon as you research Refrigeration, and Groundwater Well is waaay after that.
 
From what I remember, real groundwater wells in desert are being built since the 20th century. However, Egyptians have built draining tunnels insides dunes or hills to collect fresh water for drinking or irrigation. Of course, hundreds of workers were sacrified for this task. This was before 0AD.
 
I agree with everything here, particularly the boost to the cotage line. However I am not sure of the numbers. For a non-riverside tile in the ancient era I have the choice of farm (3 yield), mine (4 yield, -0.5 health) or woodcutter (4 yield, +0.25 health). How do these add up to +1, +0.75 and +1?

I have always assumed that it is accepted that riverside flat tiles are special, so that is why watermills and riverside lumbermills and jungle camps are better than other improvements. As currently proposed riverside lumbermills and jungle camps will always be better than watermills, except for a little while in the Renaissance?
 
The last two improvements that need looking at are the Groundwater Well and the Geothermal Factory. These are both late-game improvements but need very different adjustments.

Groundwater Well
This is an extremely weak improvement by the standards of the game. As far as I can tell, the only time Groundwater Well ever gets built is on a Desert tile that can't get anything else. It can be built on Grassland, Plains, Desert, or Marsh, but in just about any of these cases, another improvement would provide higher yields. In GW's defense, though, it does not clear Forests or Jungles, but in that case you would get much better yields from a Treefarm. Groundwater Well also spreads Irrigation, but so does Farm, and Farm does it with better food production. Groundwater Well does not produce fresh water. (I tried using <bAddsFreshWater> as defined in the terrain schema, but it doesn't seem to do anything for improvements. It is used for Oasis and Ice features to provide water.)
(...)

I just found a mod comp that you may want to use:
Fresh water well


 
I just found a mod comp that you may want to use:
Fresh water well

If we do need to have Groundwater Well produce fresh water -- and I no longer think that's so important any more -- I think we would better off implementing the ability (for any improvement to provide water) down in the DLL level rather than relying on a Python modcomp. Modcomps are fine if you don't want to mess with the DLL, but we're long past that point.
 
Now that I've been playing with these revised yields for a while, I'm not so sure I like it.
I think some improvements SHOULD be better than others. E.g. the waterwheel - being so limited in where you can put it, should be a really good improvement, but it's not.
I still generally need no farms to reach a 20-size city.

Ah well. I hope the resource-specific improvements get worked on soon. Plantations in particular are a real liability within a city's productive working radius!
 
Now that I've been playing with these revised yields for a while, I'm not so sure I like it.
I think some improvements SHOULD be better than others. E.g. the waterwheel - being so limited in where you can put it, should be a really good improvement, but it's not.
I still generally need no farms to reach a 20-size city.

Ah well. I hope the resource-specific improvements get worked on soon. Plantations in particular are a real liability within a city's productive working radius!

The problem with making an improvement better others is then the best improvement will become the go-to improvement for that particular tile. I don't want every single river square to be Watermills. Making all of the improvements equal was the only way I could feel comfortable with this situation.

I do want to work on resource improvements.
 
A location specific improvement that is slightly better overall compared to base ones like farms or workshops does not mean it will always be the "best choice". So long as it still produces less food compared to farms, less hammers compared to workshops, less commerce compared to towns, it will never be "the only choice".

Certain improvements in BTS are already designed to have special incentives rather than just looking at yields.
1) Mines giving a low probability of finding resources, which may be your only way of getting copper or iron when you have none.
2) Cottages that can grow to towns which have much higher yield than the other improvements, but risk of getting pillaged in one turn and end up with the base cottages that have much lower yield than the others.
3) Forest preserves that keep your cities healthy and happy, and a national wonder that boost it with free specialists, which makes them useful as the improvement yield itself is pretty low.
4) Farms providing irrigation so users can plan a long stretch of farms inland while gaining the irrigation +1 food bonus
5) Civic bonuses that make certain improvements more attractive so players running different civics will also focus on different improvements.
 
The problem with making an improvement better others is then the best improvement will become the go-to improvement for that particular tile. I don't want every single river square to be Watermills. Making all of the improvements equal was the only way I could feel comfortable with this situation.

It seems to me that now watermills are significantly worse than the jungle camp / lumbermill on a riverside tile. Jungle camps in particular, with Naturopathy, give 3 food, 2 hammers and 1 commerce on flat grassland. This is better than any other non-resource tile for at least a couple of eras.
 
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