Inquisition

Liambane said:

Seems like INQUISITORS ARE MISSIONARY TOO...

My State religion was Christ... I went with the inquisitor in a my city with ONLY ISLAMIC FAITH and him Removed Islam and put inside Christianity in a single action! Is this normal???

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Unfortunately, as the mod stands now, inquisitors have the same capability as Missionaries.

Missionaries and Inquisitors have opposite rolls to play in the battle for the hearts and minds of the people.

1. Missionaries are religious offensive units used to spread or proselytize a state religion into other cities throughout your civilization. You can proselytize your state religion into the other foriegn cities, if you have an open borders agreement with that civilization.

2. Inquisitors are religious defensive units used to eliminate/remove any non-state religion that may exist in any city throughout your civilization. The capability to remove non-state religions in any foreign citiy should not be possible unless two things exist:

The foreign civilization has the same state religion as you.
The foreign civilization has an open borders agreement with you.

The inquisitor, as it is now, is too powerful. It is not historically accurate to give the Inquisitor the capability to spread the state religion, as that is the job for a missionary. The inquisitor's roll should be limited to removing non-state religions from a city where your state religion already exists. You cannot go to a city and have an inquisition trial, when your religion is not already established! That is why there should be a requirement for the pre-existence of your state religion in a city before an inquisitor can be used to remove rival religions. That means sending a missionary first to establish the faith.

I have removed the capability of the Inquisitor to add the state religion. Again the inquisitor's roll is to remove NOT ADD a religion. I do like the religious victory condition, which is achieved when your religious influence has spread to 70% of all cities in the game. That is an outstanding way to reward religious unity and it increases the importance of both the missionary and the inquisitor units. BmMarnz, I applaud your idea.

However, much more needs to be done to fix the problems with the inquisitor unit. One problem I came accross was the button to execute the inquisition, comes on in a city that has your state religion established and no rival religions exist! Obviously the button should not light up under those conditions. The second problem was the capability to add a religion. As I said, I removed that capability by commenting out the three lines that perform that function in the CvEventManager.py file. The third problem I noticed is that there is no message that pops up, similar to the missionary, to indicate the success or failure of the inquisition attempt. Lastly, The capability to remove non-state religions in any foreign citiy should be possible only when the two conditions I specified earlier exist.

Bottom Line is: This is a cool mod, but much more needs to be done to improve it. Is there any modder out there willing to make these changes to improve the game?


Very Respectfully,

Orion Veteran

could you post where you made the changes o ryour changed files? on another note this mod could be the good basis for a lawyer unit that kicks out corporations.

@ OrionVeteran

Points well taken.

I have posted an updated version.

Button no longer appears when no non-state religions are present.
Inquisitor now requires state religion to be present in the city to activate.


PS - unit has always only worked in your own cities or vassal's cities.
I fixed the major issues, you'd think I'd figure out how to add a message. I'll continue to look at it. Also look into adding success rate.

PPS - your method of commenting out those lines didn't work. The function removes all religions then added the state religion. by commenting those lines the city was left with no religions at all.

Ekmek said:

could you post where you made the changes or your changed files?

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No problem. Here is what I did to remove the capability for the inquisitor to add the state religion:

File path: "C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Inquisition\Assets\Python\"

File name: CvEventManager.py

Original text reads: Look at the very end of the file.

# Add player's state religion
if ( gc.getPlayer( pUnit.getOwner( ) ).getStateReligion( ) != -1 ):
iStateReligion = gc.getPlayer( pUnit.getOwner( ) ).getStateReligion( )
pCity.setHasReligion( iStateReligion, 1, 0, 0 )

The Changes:

# Add player's state religion
#if ( gc.getPlayer( pUnit.getOwner( ) ).getStateReligion( ) != -1 ):
# iStateReligion = gc.getPlayer( pUnit.getOwner( ) ).getStateReligion( )
# pCity.setHasReligion( iStateReligion, 1, 0, 0 )

As you can see, the only change I made was to add the number symbol # to "comment out" all three lines.

Now we need to rely on someone's good graces to make the other changes, as I am not sure how to do it.

Very Respectfully,

Orion Veteran

bmarnz said:

@ OrionVeteran

PPS - your method of commenting out those lines didn't work. The function removes all religions then added the state religion. by commenting those lines the city was left with no religions at all.

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That's correct! The inquisitor should never add any religion, only remove them. Adding a religion is the exclusive roll for a Missionary.

Very Respectfully,

Orion Veteran

OrionVeteran said:

That's correct! The inquisitor should never add any religion, only remove them. Adding a religion is the exclusive roll for a Missionary.

Very Respectfully,

Orion Veteran

Click to expand...

Using your method the inquisitor will remove his own religion. If your state rel is hindu and the city has hindu and budda, using inquisitor removes both religions leaving city with nothin'.

inquisiotor should never remove state religion.

bmarnz said:

Using your method the inquisitor will remove his own religion. If your state rel is hindu and the city has hindu and budda, using inquisitor removes both religions leaving city with nothin'.

inquisiotor should never remove state religion.

Click to expand...

Let's revise that statement a little:

If the state religion exists in a city, the inquisitor should only remove all of the non-state religions, never remove the state religion.

It appears the inquisitor is removing all religions regardless of whether any of the religions are state or non-state. Now if the inquisitor is removing your state religion, we have a coding problem that needs to be fixed. The code should check to see if the state religion exists and if so, bypass the state religion during the religion removal process. The code should never add a religion ever.

If you leave the 3 lines in that I commented out, the inquisitor can add the state religion, where it previously did not exist. Thats a bad thing, as the inquisitor is performing the roll of the Missionary. I explained earlier that the roll of the Missionary is to add the state religion, while the Inquisitor's roll is to remove all competing non-state religions.

Very Respectfully,

Orion Veteran

In my update I left that section of code alone. But I added a check for the state religion to the button draw so that button doesn't appear if state religion isn't present.

Bmarnz If you look at the previous code paragraph, you will notice it says:

# Loop through all religions, remove them from the city

This is exactly what I suspected. This code should remove only the non-state religions, not All religions.

Can you fix this code so that it does not delete an existing state religion?

Very Respectfully,

Orion Veteran

bmarnz said:

In my update I left that section of code alone. But I added a check for the state religion to the button draw so that button doesn't appear if state religion isn't present.

Click to expand...

That might work, as it will give the illusion of removing only the non-state religions. However, I have another question. Does the inquisitor remove all of the religious buildings associated with the non-state religions? If it does, then these buildings for the state religion would have to be rebuilt after the code deletes all religions and then adds the state religion back in.

Very Respectfully,

Orion Veteran

OrionVeteran said:

That might work, as it will give the illusion of removing only the non-state religions. However, I have another question. Does the inquisitor remove all of the religious buildings associated with the non-state religions? If it does, then these buildings for the state religion would have to be rebuilt after the code deletes all religions and then adds the state religion back in.

Very Respectfully,

Orion Veteran

Click to expand...

Currently the inquisitor doesn't remove buildings.

Updated to v1.2

-Fixed bug that drew multiple buttons if more than one non-state religion is present.

bmarnz said:

Currently the inquisitor doesn't remove buildings.

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First, I want you to know that I think you are doing a great job with this mod.

The Test: I ran a test game where I wanted to use the inquisitor to remove two non-state religions in two different cities. In one city I built a non-state temple and in the other city I built a non-state monastery. I also built a state religion monastery in both cities. Then I used an inquisitor in both cities. All religious buildings, both state and non-state, remained intact after a successful inquisition in both cities. So you are correct in saying the inquisitor doesn't remove buildings.

However, the inquisitor should remove all non-state religious buildings in addition to the non-state religions. Why? Becuase you can hardly have a successful inquisition if non-state religious buildings remain in a city, where infadels continue to practice their heresy. Religious unity can only be achieved when all cities have been purged from the evil influence of non-state religions and the destruction of their places of false worship.

Point is: We need to find a way to have the inquisitor remove all non-state religious buildings upon a successful inquisition.

Very Respectfully,

Orion Veteran

OrionVeteran said:

First, I want you to know that I think you are doing a great job with this mod.

Click to expand...

I agree with that!

Point is: We need to find a way to have the inquisitor remove all non-state religious buildings upon a successful inquisition.

Click to expand...

That will have to be in python. Or maybe we can change the buildings to cause unhappiness or more maintenance if they remain in the city. just an alternative thought.



thx for the mod...if only firaxis made this part of the game.

Ekmek said:

That will have to be in python.

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Do you have an idea how, in python, we can loop through all non-state religeous buildings, Monasteries, Temples, Cathedrals and Shrines; and delete them all if they exist? The removal of a Holy City identifier is already developed. The delete code must leave all state religious buildings intact. Could be difficult, but not impossible, as "TheLopez" was able to do it in Warlords.

Very Respectfully,

Orion Veteran

I figured it out with a lttle help from Osaft in the python forum.

Update v1.3
-Will now remove non-state religious buildings.

bmarnz said:

I figured it out with a lttle help from Osaft in the python forum.

Update v1.3
-Will now remove non-state religious buildings.

Click to expand...

Wow! I am so impressed with you and Osaft. To solve such a difficult task in short order is nothing less than outstanding! In my view, this inquisitor unit is very near completion. By that I mean it is almost ready to be incorporated into the official game. That's my goal in addition to the fact that I love to play Civ4 BTS with this mod. Here are my remaining proposals to improve the Historical accuracy of the Inquisitor:

The Inquisitor should have a limited capability to remove non-state religions in a foreign city. Here are the required limitations that would allow inquisitions in foreign territory:

1. Pre-requisite: The foreign civilization must have an open borders agreement with you. Without an open borders agreement, the inquisitor simply can't enter foreign territory without declaring war.

2. Pre-requisite: The foreign civilization must have the same state religion as you. Without a matching state religion, you do not have the authority of the foreign state to conduct an inquisition in their cities. This requirement for matching state religions, allows the Inquisitor to retain a religious defensive roll, when it attempts to exert more religious influence on a city owned by another civilization (i.e. an Ally).

3. Pre-requisite: The state religion must already exist in the foreign city. This is done either by the AI spreading your religious influence or by sending a Missionary to proselytize that city, before using an inquisitor to remove all of the non-state religions. This is just like your own cities, where the button does not light up unless the state religion exists. After sending the missionary in it's religious offensive roll to spread the faith a city, then the inquisitor can be sent on it's religious defensive roll, as a "defender of the faith" when it removes all of the non-state religions.

Next: The Inquisitor needs a message that pops up, similar to the Missionary, to indicate the success or failure of the inquisition attempt.

Last: The cost for the inquisitor should be increased to at least twice the cost for the Missionary. The inquisitor is a very powerful unit, as it is not limited to just removing non-state religions. Your latest version gave the Inquisitor a very powerful capability to remove all non-state religious buildings as well. Because the Inquisitor has a greater capability than the Missionary, then the cost to produce an Inquisitor should also be greater.

The victory condition for religious influence in 70% of all cities, works perfectly and emphasizes the importance of the Inquisitor in this game. I have one word for it: Awesome!

There is no doubt in my mind. If we can achieve these remaining goals, everyone is going to want this mod to be included in their mega-mods. At that time, I believe it will be necessary to politic with Firaxis to give this inquisitor it's rightful place in the official game.

Very respectfully,

Orion Veteran

@Orion Veteran

I think I prefer that the inquisitor only work in its own territory (or vassal's territory). Just because civs might share state religion doesn't mean their both equally intolerant of other religions. One civ may be going for culture victory and may need extra culture provided by those religious buildings and therefore wouldn't appreciate the other civs removing those religions from their cities.

I'll consider increasing inquisitor cost.

I'm currently working on adding a message. I have posted a question in the python sub-forum regarding my code that's not working.

I'd also like to add a success/failure rate similar to missionary. I just need someone to provide me with the appropriate random number function.

I appreciate your interest and feedback in this mod. Hopefully I can soon get the kinks worked out so I can incorporate it into my main mod.

Bmarnz,

Just a quick note. I tested version 1.3 and yes the non-state religious buildings were successfully deleted, while the official state religious buildings remained intact. Good job!

Very Respectfully,

Orion Veteran

bmarnz said:

I'll consider increasing inquisitor cost.

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The cost for a Missionary is 40. Perhaps the cost for an Inquisitor should be 80.

bmarnz said:

I think I prefer that the inquisitor only work in its own territory (or vassal's territory). Just because civs might share state religion doesn't mean their both equally intolerant of other religions. One civ may be going for culture victory and may need extra culture provided by those religious buildings and therefore wouldn't appreciate the other civs removing those religions from their cities.

Click to expand...

I understand the delema for a civ that may be going for a culture victory and who may need extra culture provided by non-state religious buildings that potentially could be removed by a foriegn inquisitor. On the other hand history shows that a religion can spread into many countries and inquisition trials were not confined to just one nation.

For example: the Spanish inquisition extended into France, Italy, Portugal and Spain. My original suggestion advocates the Inquisitor of your state religion should not only have jurisdiction in all cities within your borders, but also in all foreign nations that share the same state religion and have an open borders agreement with you.

Perhaps there may be a compromise that could solve the delema for a culture victory. Add one more restriction for use of the Inquisitor in foreign territory:

Pre-requisit: The foreign Ally or Vassal must be a Theocracy for another Civ to conduct a foriegn inquisition. If the foreign Ally religious Civic is Pacifism or Free Religion or Organized Religion , then the inquisitor cannot conduct a foreign inquisition. My reasoning here is that a cultural victory is far less likely for a Theocracy civic, as a Theocracy is simply not tolerant of non-state religions.

Your thoughts?


Orion Verteran