Expanding Civ3

eXalted said:

Can I haz?
Will be very helpful!

Click to expand...

yes, see attached.
It's zipped, because you can't send excel files.

Red is added by me.

CIV3 units overview in Excel --> View attachment Civ3 Units.rar <--

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I have added the Elephant Rider, the Elephant Archer and the Elephant Cavalry.

They are essentially the same as their Horse counterparts; the Horseman, Knight and Cavalry. Except they all have +1 HP (because Elephants are stronger than Horses); the Elephant Archer has 3 instead of 4 attack and the Elephant Cavalry has 2 instead of 3 movement.

Cavalry 6 3 3
Knight 4 3 2
Horseman 2 1 2

Elephant Cavalry6 3 2 (+1HP)
Elephant Archer 3 3 2 (+1HP)
Elephant Rider 2 1 2 (+1HP)

This asks for the following:
shall I make Ivory a strategic recourse. Should Horses and Ivory still BOTH be available as much as horses are now (or make them a little rarer, since there are 2 of them now.)

Horses have a 160 appearance ratio, maybe Ivory and Horses should be 80/80 or 90/90.

And that means I will have to add 'Coffee' as a luxury resource.
Thoughts?

Thanks for the Excel sheet.

Actually a lot of mods do the Ivory as a strategy resource thing and I personally find it a very nice touch.

90/90 seems like the better option. Greater chance for a civilization to have both of them

Or a cocoa luxury resource. It has quite a history actually!

I have made the Coastal Fortress (now 100 shields instead of 40) make a Heavy Galleass every 10 turns.
Becomes obsolete with Combustion.

I have thought about making it a Small Wonder and make it produce a ship every 5 turns.

Heavy Galleass: ADM, 3/2/4. 2 bombard and -1 on the Health Bar. (ideas?)

The coastal fortress is still available with Metallurgy, but you'll have to wait 10 turns until the Galleasses become available. (long enough to get Privateers - who I gave an extra attack point - Galleons and Frigates.)
You can build a Fortress in every coastal city, so in the end they can add up to be quite a fleet.

I read about making the Fortress basically an immovable bombard unit, but I opted to go with the Ship-making route, to spice up naval battles and because, if I'm going to add a unit, I might as well make it worth it.

I hope the AI builds them, so the naval battles can become a bit more attractive.
I also gave all combat ships hidden nationality. So war on the seas is a bit more a free-for-all.
All ships that can transport things still sail under the national flags. (to prevent land units from entering your borders)


I also added the Tribe as a starting unit instead of the regular Settler.
The Tribe has 3 movement so you can walk 2 steps in the first turn before settling on the spot. Making it a bit less of a choice to settle in space or 2 spaces away.
Tribes can not be built. It's just a starting unit.

I do not like the all ships are pirates way.

Give the KI cheap pirate ships for all eras and you will get your shark pool feeling.
Cheap means somewhat cheaper then their official naval counterpart (the crew is paid by the plunder).

I have Pirate Galley (1/1/3) with map making, Corsair Galley (2/1/4) with Astronomy, Privateer (3/1/5) with Magnetism, Pirate Frigate (4/2/7) with Industrialism and the Q-Ship (6/2/11) with Mass Production. Privateer upwards can also bombard shore tiles for further unpleasury.

At least modern ships should show their flag, since the Vienna Congress (Wiener Kongress) in 1814 forbid the use of Privateers ("Free ship - free goods").

A non wonder producing facility can also backfire, as the KI finances could quickly overpowered by the numbers of autoproduced ships, as the KI seems to store their pirate ships in their cities unless there is a good target in range (which means a weaker ship).

Kirejara said:

I do not like the all ships are pirates way.

Give the KI cheap pirate ships for all eras and you will get your shark pool feeling.
Cheap means somewhat cheaper then their official naval counterpart (the crew is paid by the plunder).

I have Pirate Galley (1/1/3) with map making, Corsair Galley (2/1/4) with Astronomy, Privateer (3/1/5) with Magnetism, Pirate Frigate (4/2/7) with Industrialism and the Q-Ship (6/2/11) with Mass Production. Privateer upwards can also bombard shore tiles for further unpleasury.

Click to expand...

Hey that could be a good idea.
I could make a 'pirate' line of ships and have them parallel to the normal ships.
The question however, is why would someone still make the 'original' ships?
I could make the pirate ships one step slower and lose one HP (less organised crew).

At least modern ships should show their flag, since the Vienna Congress (Wiener Kongress) in 1814 forbid the use of Privateers ("Free ship - free goods").

Click to expand...

Agreed

A non wonder producing facility can also backfire, as the KI finances could quickly overpowered by the numbers of autoproduced ships, as the KI seems to store their pirate ships in their cities unless there is a good target in range (which means a weaker ship).

Click to expand...

Hm, so you're afraid that the AI finance is crippled by the number of auto produced ships? I could make them free of support.
I've noticed though that the AI uses the ships quite a lot. This requires testing.

Yes, I forgot to write that the "official" naval line is stronger and more expensive.

Second EDIT: These Pirate Galleys are belonging to another civ. Barbarian Pirate Galleys have only 2 hitpoints as the are only conscripts and do not promote to Elite such as one of the lower stack (conscript and regular have got the same hitpoints in my mod).



Mapmaking has the Catapult Tetrareme (2/1/3), Astronomy has the Galleass (3/2/4), Magnetism has the Frigate (4/2/6). And at their time the Pirate Frigate and the Q-Ship are outclassed by nearly every type of Cruiser, let alone the main battleships, z. B. the Armored Cruiser (10/6/10) and the Heavy Cruiser (15/8/11) as classic historical convoy escorts.

It works for me, as the KI builds both pirate and offical line. Such as they build both the high tech landunits and their budget versions (without or with less resources) even if they have got all resources available.

When I first testplayed a game with the great wonder Archimedes Workshop (gives a Siege Quinquerime every 5 rounds in its first version), I forgot to mark it as wonder. But I continued the game to see what happens. The KI builded it in every harbour city and therefor got huge numbers of the Siege Quinquerimes. Sometimes later in the game most of them were forced to sell nearly every city improvement to keep their massive fleets. I then quit the game as the KI was practical paralysed.

EDIT: I have added instead a defence bonus (like that of the Wall) to the Coastal Fortess. I am planing to add Wyrmshadows Star Fort as immobile and for obvious reasons untransportable defence unit to take over the intended role of the Coastal Fortress. I am not sure about its abilities and strength ( http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=12632 ).

Someone stole my bike last night... seriously, stay with your lazy filthy hands off other people's property, so I got mad.

And when I'm mad, stuff gets done.
What I'm still looking for is a ship that looks like a pirate ship, to give to the barbs... I can't find a good one.

I was looking for some pirate ships, so I added the following units to my sea-going arsenal - in chronological order:

The War Galley: a pirate galley available with Map Making:
Stats: (ADM/Bombard/Transport/Shields)
2 1 2 0 0 40 Map Making HP-1 Hidden Nationality


A Trireme, another pirate ship available with Engineering:
Stats: (ADM/Bombard/Transport/Shields)
2 2 4 0 0 50 Engineering HP-1 Hidden Nationality


A fire ship; it will set fire to the sea. I love this thing. I had to add it. Available with Invention:
Stats: (ADM/Bombard/Transport/Shields)
3 2 3 0 0 50 Invention HP-1 Hidden Nationality


A Royal Galley (not hidden) (La Reale, but I don't want french in my game, so I renamed it) Available with Gunpowder:
Stats: (ADM/Bombard/Transport/Shields)
3 2 3 (2) 0 55 Saltpeter Gunpowder


An Ocean Liner, able to carry 5 troops (a full army) but has no defense. I had to think hard about what tech it needs. I went with Electricity because the Titanic had it, and not with Steel, because... because I was still angry that's why.
Stats: (ADM/Bombard/Transport/Shields)
0 0 5 0 5 75 Coal Iron Electricity Hidden Nationality

I am sorry about your bike.

The Ocean Liner (Titanic) is one of my replacements for the Firaxis Transports. It can carry 8 units and became available with steel, while its flavor counterparts became available with combustion (2/2/9, iron and coal or oil). I have used the wyrmshadow model.

I have added some new units. The Early Tank comes with combustion (12/6/1) and while slow it has proven somewhat useful (if you cover it with Infantry!!!).

The Starfort cost only 400 shields (0/10/immobile, +10 hitpoints and can bombard) and despite its pricetag the KI builds them once they reached Metallurgy. And it is a very tough obstacle for an invasion. This one has been shelled by half of my battlefleet, but is still standing. It blow up however when I started my carrier based airstrikes. But I think I will have to lower both its hitpoints and its price tag for game balance.



The Truck next to Teotihuacan is a fast footmen transport (0/0/3). Please note that you can not load him into another transport. So It has to be build or airliftet on its continent of assignement.

And the Spy in the south of Texcoco did not fail in navigation, but destroyed the last aztec salpeter mine and captured their last workers.

The Flying Boat does not sound so impressive, but it can not only fly from one city to another and bomb enemy cities, but it can also move over short distances to ferry workers or military units over small gaps of sea (Aircraft with unit ablities: All terrain as road and Lethal Sea bombardment). I discovered this ability more or less by surprise after forgetting to check "Immobile".



Please note that you will have to use Quintillus Editor at least for the strategic checkboxes of land transports, immobile defenders and part time workers as the Firaxis Editor will not only not allow to set these checkboxes, but will also remove them everytime you open the BIQ with it!

- Added a 10/1/2 bombard artillery unit, the Smoke Mortar, available with Fascism (the Nebelwerfer from the MU library)
I wanted to add this one to fill a gap between the 8/1/1 cannon and the 12/2/2 artillery and because I think Fascism is a wasteful tech to research; it slows down the AI in a crucial period (they need to research it, the player always leaves it in the corner).
- Gave the Barbarians the black civ colour.
- Gave the Barbarians a 2/2/3 ship instead of the Galley. Gave it defensive bombard. The Barbarians are considerably stronger (the 'warrior' is 2/1/1 also) so they are a serious thread to think about and not a mine of free upgrades or free slaves. (if played with the Javelin Thrower...)
- replaced the Sumerians with the Austrians. I don't care for Sumeria and want to add the Austrians as they are in the game anyway as the 32nd civ. It wasn't that hard to do. I also like their 7/3/3/ UU. Overpowered?
The Enkidu Warrior (1/2/1) is now without a job though. Ideas??

TO DO:
- going to make fascism a useful gov, but need ideas. I think a mixture of Republic and Communism. I'm thinking of adding a Government specific building/Small wonder that allows/auto produces a unit.
- add an invisible land unit, but I need to be sure that the AI will use them well. Don't want to mess up the game too much, just add stuff that's not in there.

going to make fascism a useful gov, but need ideas. I think a mixture of Republic and Communism. I'm thinking of adding a Government specific building/Small wonder that allows/auto produces a unit.

Click to expand...

I have moved the Secret Police HQ to Fascism.

And I have added Labour Camps as city "improvement" (cost 10, 2 production bonus, required fascism as gov., makes 2 unhappy faces for obvious reasons). The KI is building them once they have switched to Fascism.

Oh yes, and any civ switching to Fascism is treated by me as enemy.

And Communism enabled to build Scotland Yard as great wonder (gives a free Police Station in every city, no specific gov. required).

I have also added Horse Artillery with Military Tradition (Movement 3, Bombard 6, Range 1, wheeled) as addition to the more static artillery.

Kirejara said:

And Communism enabled to build Scotland Yard as great wonder (gives a free Police Station in every city, no specific gov. required).

Click to expand...

This great wonder seems awfully powerful. Getting one or 2 corruption reducing buildings in a city has a high priority if corruption is an issue. If corruption is mediocre, than one such building reduces corruption by 20 to 30 percentage points. At super high corruption it reduces corruption by pretty much exactly 10 percentage points. So the savings by this wonders are significant. If however those buildings would else have been rushed with money or disbanding military units, than the savings might be huge. Doing that is somewhat reasonable so the city can build other city improvements by itself at a reasonably low corruption.

Yes, Scotland Yard is very powerful, but also very expensive to build.

Theov said:

add an invisible land unit, but I need to be sure that the AI will use them well. Don't want to mess up the game too much, just add stuff that's not in there.

Click to expand...

I have added the Spy (6/2/2, invisible, detect invisible, 100 shields) and the Secret Agent (6/2/2, invisible, hidden nationality, detect invisible, 100 shields, but can not be build!).

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=95035

While the Spy (the female operative) can be freely build, the Secret Agent (James Bond) is autoproduced by the Intelligence Agency every 15 rounds.

I had to limit the access of the KI to the Secret Agent as they were abusing it in a game breaking way (The KI can attack and capture cities without declaring war when using a unit with hidden nationality).

Kirejara said:

Yes, Scotland Yard is very powerful, but also very expensive to build.


I have added the Spy (6/2/2, invisible, detect invisible, 100 shields) and the Secret Agent (6/2/2, invisible, hidden nationality, detect invisible, 100 shields, but can not be build!).

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=95035

While the Spy (the female operative) can be freely build, the Secret Agent (James Bond) is autoproduced by the Intelligence Agency every 15 rounds.

I had to limit the access of the KI to the Secret Agent as they were abusing it in a game breaking way (The KI can attack and capture cities without declaring war when using a unit with hidden nationality).

Click to expand...

What sounds did you use??

On Spies: Ok, i will make a Spy then without the hidden nationality. I'll probably add stealth attack to make them more 'on a mission' kind of a unit. Perhaps add pillage.
Maybe another cheaper version that can only detect them but can see further.

On Hidden Nationality: I'll check it out. Thanks. Yeah you said the AI is good/bad with land units that have hidden nationality.
Maybe give them lower hitpoints, lower or no defense so they can be defended against easier or get captured like workers even? Or lower attack so they can not be used as offensive weapons (only to capture/scare workers and to pillage?)

But the spy will defenately be built.
[Update]
He's added.
Got to see how I'm going to use him though... He's available with Espionage.
With the Smoke Mortar and the Sniper, the top row of Techs in the modern era is a bit more useful to research now.


In the Editor though, there's under Unit Abilities: 'Stealth' and 'Invisible'. What's the difference?
And if I make the spy invisible, then the AI is going to be at war, since they will trigger war anytime they accidentaly walk into a spy (like the Sub).
What can I do about this??? Make him with hidden nationality, but then the AI is going to run wild with them.

Heja,

IIRC "Stealth" allows to pick specific targets in an enemy stack or city.

"Invisible" means invisible.

And yes, the KI often careless walks into Spies and thereby start a war. Even workers will then attack the spy and they allways die (since attack strengh = 0 ).

Just be careful where to put your spies if you do not want a war.

I often use them to actually start a war without being seen as aggressor by the other KI civs. This is pretty useful if you need a resource or luxury the target KI do not know yet or does not want to sell.

Kirejara said:

IIRC "Stealth" allows to pick specific targets in an enemy stack or city.

Click to expand...

"Stealth" only works for air units (reduces the chance that an air unit can be intercepted), "Stealth Attack" allows you to pick targets out of a stack (normal attacks only).

Kirejara said:

Heja,

IIRC "Stealth" allows to pick specific targets in an enemy stack or city.

"Invisible" means invisible.

And yes, the KI often careless walks into Spies and thereby start a war. Even workers will then attack the spy and they allways die (since attack strengh = 0 ).

Just be careful where to put your spies if you do not want a war.

I often use them to actually start a war without being seen as aggressor by the other KI civs. This is pretty useful if you need a resource or luxury the target KI do not know yet or does not want to sell.

Click to expand...

I will not use invisibility for ground units then as it messes up all diplomacy...
which brings us to the question, how can spies be used then?

Laurana Kanan said:

"Stealth" only works for air units (reduces the chance that an air unit can be intercepted), "Stealth Attack" allows you to pick targets out of a stack (normal attacks only).

Click to expand...

ah it's for air units.

thanks.

I'm back from vacation, so I have (little) time again to continue.
Ideas/suggestions are welcome.

Spies are not so bad for use by the KI. And they are definatly fun to use as player.

If everything is not going well, you can also disable or partly disable the spy for KI use: Just remove the checkmarks in "AI Strategies" or set them to exploring only in the editor.

I have done myself a very important step, as I have remove the maintenance cost for the harbor.

I was just tired to get my trade reputation trashed in nearly every game, just because the KI are so bankrupt, that they were unable to pay their harbor maintenance.

And then they blame me for not delivering the goods to their no longer existing harbor.

I'll look into the harbor thing.

And concerning the spies; I don't see a use where they don't trigger wars, I want the units to be available to the AI too, to not give me an unfair advantage.

I thought about making spies an 'air' unit, so they can do missions. Don't know how to implement that correctly though.

I was also thinking about adding a few rockets/missile units.

Have you tried a game with spies?

I have reduced the strength of both Spy and Secret Agent to 4/2/2 and both are set to KI Strategy as offensive and exploration.

But I am not seeing an increase of war because of KI spies in the path of another KI. Maybee the KI is better avoiding other KI units than those of a human player.

The maintenance less harbors are working good, but they will not help your reputation if they are taken away by another civ. So trading with war parties is still dangerous.

I was thinking about giving the palace air trade, but I abandoned that idea, as it looks too much like magic or real big messenger pigeons.

If you want to get the AI to build the coastal fortress, give it a bonus for food, shields, or money production. I have varied over having the coastal fortress produce units. For me, the optimum would be immobile seacoast artillery units. I am not the greatest at adding more units though.