Firaxis is working on Civ3 again

I have no problem with that "uncertainty" you describe here. It's just like in real life warfare: superior numbers don't "guarantee" success.

Just think about the battle of Little Bighorn, or the battle of Isandlwana. In both cases basically "stone age people" beat a technologically advanced 19th century army! It happens very seldomly (in 99% of the cases the more advanced weapons will win), but it does happen once in a while. Which is the same in Civ3: in most cases the tank will beat the spearman, but sometimes, very rarely, sand gets into the motor, or the tank crew is very stupid or drunk or whatever, and the stone age people crack the tank... ;)

And there you hit the nail on the head. In 99% of cases the more advanced army will win. That is not what happens. If it was just a case of the obscure loss of a unit here or there then it wouldn't be an issue, but it's not, it's a regular pattern. Because the size of your force doesn't count for anything. Both the battles you mention are about huge numbers out-manning the number and rapidity of bullets available to the attacker, in Civ 3 it's always one Unit versus one Unit. You could have a stack of twenty Cavalry and the first one can still die against a lone Spearman wandering the plains. The second one might red-line and it could be three before you nail it, the other 17 not even playing a part.

Where you do want it to work, however, is if 5 or 10 Spearmen can defeat one wandering Cavalry Unit, by sheer weight of numbers, but anything Infantry or later? You really think morale is going to be great watching the first wave get mown down for zero kills? All those explosions going off around you? And does any Unit ever just surrender in Civ?

When you play a game like this, the pieces on the board are just supposed to be representative of reality, people aren't hoping for Custer's Last Stand in every single encounter. Take one of my current games, using the Sipahi. I landed 30 Sipahi and 10 Infantry on the island of a Civ which had a couple of Knights, about 10 Medieval Infantry, about 15 Longbowmen (mostly fortified in cities) and about 40 Pikemen (mostly fortified in cities), and, my God, but that was such a slog. After taking the first two cities I had not enough troops to even march onto the third city confidently, with 2 dead Sipahi, 3 damaged Infantry and 6 damaged Sipahi and two empty cities to try and defend with Pikemen/ME duos walking about infront of me looking for a way in. And each Sipahi that attacked those duos took Hit-Point damage, putting another 8 into the recovery pile and leaving another couple dead, together with another couple of Infantry sent to the recovery pile.

It was like marching through deep wet mud just trying to overwhelm a nation with a best defence of 3, but also many 2's and 1's where my attackers were all 6s and 95% 8s. It felt like it was taking forever until I finally got an Army, then a second army soon after, at which point they fell like dominoes. And what was killing me wasn't actual deaths, but the fact that every single time (well 90% of the time) I attacked anything I would lose Hit-Points and have to send my Unit to recovery instead of further into the field. And it would regularly take 8 Sipahi to take down 3 Pikemen and an Archer Fortified in a City, causing and endless routine of stop-start-stop-start as I move, recover, defend, recover, move, recover, defend, recover, ever watchful for that enemy Unit just waiting for a lapse in concentration to run behind a gap in my wall and re-take a city (for no other point than cause me societal revolt).

I felt no benefit by having 8.3.3 instead of 6.3.3. I noticed no discernible difference in how the battle played out. Some Sipahi would die without bothering to retreat, even when they go to red almost instantly, some went red instantly and retreated, some went red slowly then died, some went to 2/4, some managed 3/4 and the odd one managed to kill something without losing a single Hit-Point. It was no different to rolling a dice 1-6 each time, no matter the location or defence stats of the defender. And the Infantry with a defence of 10... while none died, many went to 2/4 or 1/4 so quickly against just one attacker with a value of 4 that it took forever to move my front into a front. All the while the odd captured city flipping back and requiring another bout of Hit-Point loss and loss of attackers to flip-retaliation defence duties.

I could have made things easier with Artillery, but I really wanted to experiment and have some fun with my Sipahi. See just how good they were(n't). And this is why everyone recommends Artillery to just farm those Armies ASAP, because the numbers count for diddly. And from a game point of view, the player likes to actually notice a reward for achievement, likes to have some sense that they have performed well and gained an advantage after 200 or whatever turns in a game, that the numbers actually mean something.
 
ı for one would also like a scoreboard , there's this option when you play for victory points but a detailed breakdown would be nice . ı played the first Panzer General for a decade and ı still take pride ı have 0 (zero in writing) unit losses except those two SPG when ı was bored in the very first campaign ı played ; for that to happen ı thought every move every turn , in Civ III currently , you can just swamp everything with numbers .
 
I landed 30 Sipahi and 10 Infantry on the island of a Civ which had a couple of Knights, about 10 Medieval Infantry, about 15 Longbowmen (mostly fortified in cities) and about 40 Pikemen (mostly fortified in cities)
*snip*
just trying to overwhelm a nation with a best defence of 3, but also many 2's and 1's
(I'm sure) You know perfectly well that C3C defenders also get defence-bonuses, which often makes fights a lot more equal than raw A- vs. D-value comparisons would make them appear at first sight. Just to recap: terrain (+10 for flatland, +50% for hills), urban warfare (+50% for Walls or Pop7-12), defending against cross-river attacks (+25%), and/or unit-fortification (+25%) all give D-bonuses. So a D=3 unit fortified in a City (Pop7+) has an actual D+Dbonus value
  • on flatland = 3+3*(10%+50%+25%) = 5.5 (rounded down)
  • on a hill = 3+3*(50%+50%+25%) = 6.4
And if one were foolish enough to attack a City across a river -- which I'm sure you weren't :hmm: -- these D+Dbonus values would become
  • on flatland = 3+3*(10%+25%+50%+25%) = 6.3
  • on a hill = 3+3*(50%+25%+50%+25%) = 7.5
where my attackers were all 6s and 95% 8s.
Against the defence-stats calculated above (and assuming you never attacked across rivers), an A=6 Cav/Inf is only going to have a ~48-52% chance of winning each combat round, i.e. the same range of odds as for losing each round -- and an A=8 Sipahi's chances are only a little better, at 55-59% vic prob per round (or 41-45% loss prob per round). These are by no means guaranteed victories for your attackers, and I'm unsure why (you seem to believe that) they 'should' be.

(And a petty niggle, which should be unworthy of me but isn't: 30/40 = 75%, not 95%)
8 Sipahi to take down 3 Pikemen and an Archer Fortified in a City
*snip*
Some Sipahi would die without bothering to retreat, even when they go to red almost instantly, some went red instantly and retreated, some went red slowly then died
Although the retreat probability for a fast vs. slow unit is 50%, (as far as I can tell) that probability is only applied if the attacker is redlined before the defender -- if the defender is redlined first, then the attacker will never retreat, it will fight to the death (its own or the defender's). And with the A- and D+Dbonus-values being relatively evenly balanced, it would not be surprising that fights often went down to the redline, and that your Sipahis therefore didn't retreat as often as you might have hoped.

Finally, none of the above takes into account any single-turn multi-vic promotions that the (presumably originally reg or vet) defenders earned before you finally killed them.
I could have made things easier with Artillery, but I really wanted to experiment and have some fun with my Sipahi
And you found out that they are insufficient on their own. At risk of pointing out the obvious, if you'd brought, say, 8-12 Arty to the party in place of 4-6 each of the Sipahis and Infs (for about the same shield-cost), and used bombardment to damage the City-defenders before sending in your ground forces, your unit-attrition rates would likely have been (much) lower, and your advance might not have stalled so soon.

And assuming you kept your stack(s) assembled in hostile territory, the Arty would also have fired defensive salvos against incoming Knights, Maces and LBMs, reducing the HP-damage done to your Infs on the IBTs. You don't complain of losing any Infs, but again, why should there be zero injuries? While rifles may have better range than longbows, battle-fatigues are not immune to arrows, nor do they protect against blunt-force trauma sustained during hand-to-hand combat... So your results on defence are pretty much what I would expect for A=4 units vs. D+Dbonus=11 (unfortified on flatland) to 17(.5) (fortified in Hills) units: multiple injuries but no unit-losses.

Speaking probabilistically, I'm willing to bet that you'd find that, in terms of HP-losses, your combat results are pretty much what would/ should have been expected (i.e. if you add up the total HP lost, your forces probably lost around 40-45% of that total, and your enemy lost around 55-60%). Yes, if you'd been getting these results while attacking with A=16 Tank-equivalents, I could better sympathise with your frustration -- but you weren't. Rather, it sounds as though you might have underestimated your enemy's capabilities -- or overestimated your own -- rather like General Custer and Lord Chelmsford did.

And BTW, higher-tech units don't always win in the real world. If you want a more 'modern' example than Lanzelot's, consider e.g. the Battle of Mogadishu. There is no question that the 'attacking' US units (Helicopters, eInf, eMarines, vMechInf) were better equipped, better trained, and had better logistical support than the 'defending' Somali militia(s) (= 'rRifles'). But even though the Somalis sustained much higher casualty figures (read 'HP'), the US troops were still forced to retreat without accomplishing their intended mission.
 
50% is true for regulars, higher ranks have higher chances. The editor tells:

conscript 34%
regular 50%
veteran 58%
elite 66%
I should really poke around in the Editor a lot more than I have, because I did not know that -- so thanks for pointing it out (and also correcting my mistaken assumption the other day re. WLTKD and corruption-reduction). You are officially Awesome.
 
Once again... I know all that... duuuur...

I'm criticising the fact that that's the way it works...

Are you that incapable of understanding basic English?
 
And BTW, higher-tech units don't always win in the real world. If you want a more 'modern' example than Lanzelot's, consider e.g. the Battle of Mogadishu. There is no question that the 'attacking' US units (Helicopters, eInf, eMarines, vMechInf) were better equipped, better trained, and had better logistical support than the 'defending' Somali militia(s) (= 'rRifles'). But even though the Somalis sustained much higher casualty figures (read 'HP'), the US troops were still forced to retreat without accomplishing their intended mission.

Jeezus, are you going to mention every single occurrence of where superior nations have "not won" as a means to defend appalling game mechanics? Here let me help you:

"Consequently, several gun battles took place in Mogadishu between local gunmen and peacekeepers. Among these was the Battle of Mogadishu of 1993, an unsuccessful attempt by US troops to apprehend faction leader Aidid."

I wasn't aware that we were playing "capture the King" when we invade countries, my mistake, the US failed a commando mission to capture a rebel dude hidden in a random city somewhere, therefore everything about the appalling nature of Civ 3's horrible mechanics are justified... gotcha...
 
Nevermind the fact that Hitler conquered the entirety of continental Europe in the space of two years with just a minor advancement in Tank technology. Nevermind that the English controlled one third of the world's surface with just minor improvements to Cannon and Rifle technology. Nevermind the fact that the Americans completely annihilated the North Korean army a few weeks after landing due to minor technological advancements in Aeroplanes, artillery and hand weaponry, nevermind the fact that blah blah blah... oh, a small group of something got defeated once here and there, that's what we'll base our empire building fantasy game on... yeesh...
 
ı for one would also like a scoreboard , there's this option when you play for victory points but a detailed breakdown would be nice . ı played the first Panzer General for a decade and ı still take pride ı have 0 (zero in writing) unit losses except those two SPG when ı was bored in the very first campaign ı played ; for that to happen ı thought every move every turn , in Civ III currently , you can just swamp everything with numbers .

Yes, I love it when games have additional options which provide more tactical choices. Especially when you get a sense of achievement for only minor losses.

In Medieval Total War, there's this neat trick where if you send in an army of Inquisitors instead of soldiers then the country instantly revolts and goes grey, including any stack of armies there-in located. You them bribe that big army cheaply and send it across the border to attack the other group's big stack. Or just keep moving the Inquisitors around until the entirety of their kingdom greys out in revolt.

That game also allowed stronger Units to have genuine upgrade punch, to the point where one full stack of Swiss Pikemen and Longbowmen plus Chivalric Knights could defeat an invasion 4 times their size with barely any casualties. Because that game, as did Civ 2, differentiated Peasants from Swordsmen, differentiating the strength of Units beyond... numbers...
 
Yes, that is what I was promoting to the guy who's apparently working on Civ 3, what this thread is about...
 
Once again... I know all that... duuuur...

I'm criticising the fact that that's the way it works...

Are you that incapable of understanding basic English?
Perfectly capable, thanks for asking. Actually better than most, I suspect, since understanding quite technical English -- or making it understandable -- is what I do for a living.

However, what I'm finding a wee bit harder to comprehend is why someone who claims to understand the base-game mechanics (thanks for that *duuuur* as well, BTW -- so mature!) nonetheless apparently continues to expect that fighting approximately evenly-balanced battles between individual units should produce favourable results in the majority of (dare I hazard 'all'?) instances. Even though they (should) know that when an action has 2 possible outcomes, only one of which is desired, but both of which are equally probable, then over the course of repeated trials the 'wrong' result can/should be expected in around half of those (give or take).

So just out of curiosity, I looked up some of your old posts and threads, and (far too) many of them appear to consist of you hammering this decomposing equine into a stinking pancake. I see that (far) better players than me have repeatedly demonstrated that your so-called 'overwhelming/superior forces' frequently aren't (because raw A/D comparisons are not the whole picture), and yet you continue to assert that the game is somehow giving you unfair combat-results. Which begs the question: how do you think it should work? And what exactly should this Civ3-fixer be doing to change it, bearing in mind that he/ she/ it's hardly likely to be rewriting the source code from the ground up? (Yay! On topic!)
Jeezus, are you going to mention every single occurrence of where superior nations have "not won" as a means to defend appalling game mechanics? Here let me help you:
*snip*
No need to post the quote, I already read the entire article. And you know perfectly well that this was (yet) a(nother) counterexample to your expressed belief that "high-tech should always beat low-tech in the game, because that's what always happens in the real world" (paraphrasing, but that's effectively what you've said in many of your posts -- English Comprehension 101 strikes again). While that may be true on the aggregate -- and I don't think anyone has seriously argued against that assertion, nor claimed that a Spear should 'always' win vs. a Tank -- it's not always true at the squad/regiment (read 'individual unit')-level. And when Bad Things happen to those high-tech troops, they're frequently the result of insufficient preparation/ planning SNAFUs. So as far as I'm concerned, the game mechanics do generally reflect what sometimes (if rarely) happens for real, which in turn means that I find your manner dangerously disingenuous -- not to mention a little petulant/ childish.

My last word, I promise (feel free to continue unaccompanied):

Apart from the genuine bugs/ oversights -- which I also would love to see fixed (Yay! On topic!) -- the base-game already works just fine, if the player understands the (mathematical, probabilistic) rules and takes them into account when planning.

So here, let me help you. Rather than repeatedly whingeing about it, why don't you do something more constructive instead? As Theov (and others) have already suggested, if you don't like the way the base-game plays, why not simply mod your installation until it plays more like the way that you think it ought to, and then play your modded game instead? Here are a few things you could do to improve win-probabilities for modern vs. ancient units:
  • Increase modern-era A/D values relative to ancient era A/D values
  • Give HP-handicaps to ancient units, and/or HP-bonuses to more modern units
  • Increase base-HP for more experienced units
  • Give all M=1 ranged-weapon units the defensive-bombard ability (with RoF based on tech-level)
  • Reduce/ remove terrain defensive-bonuses
  • Increase (modern) naval movement rates, and/or give them blitz-attack
... although these changes will obviously also benefit the AI when they bring such modded units to your doors (and still won't ever completely eliminate the occasional :spear: )...
And to deal with Strat Res occurrence issues, and make unit-building/ future-planning/ city-placement easier/ fairer/ more fun, which I see you've also posted/ ranted about*:
  • Increase StratRes incidence
  • Reduce StratRes disappearance probability
  • Alter the 'tech-to-reveal-StratRes' to something more appropriate (IYHO)
  • Remove the tech-requirement altogether to make some/all StratRes visible from the start of the game
*
Spoiler :
On this I kind of agree with you: the 'StratRes revealed by tech' mechanic seems a little silly to me too -- or at least the revealing techs in the base game are not really appropriate. After all, where would any Civ get the idea of studying IronWorking if they had no Iron deposits to practice on? Or -- even sillier -- how would they even conceive of harnessing Horses to Chariots if Dobbin wasn't already prancing around in their fields? But these are not gamebreakers for me.

The C&C subforum is one of the most active within the C3C section of CFC, and I'm sure you'll find plenty more ideas there, plus ways to preserve game balance (i.e. preventing your wishlist-changes from completely crippling the AI, even at Sid) if that's important to you. Hell, when you're done, you could even post your finished mod here for the rest of us to have a go, as well.

That way, everyone's happy.

Toodle-oo
 
Once again... I know all that... duuuur...

I'm criticising the fact that that's the way it works...

Are you that incapable of understanding basic English?

The reason why this guy is so mad at the RNG is that the game contains some secret code which detects hot head players and alter its otherwise random results in order to annoy them as much as possible.

The author of said code receives from Firaxis $10 for every copy of the game CD that gets destroyed as a result. He also receives undisclosed amounts of money from various hardware manifacturers for every PC, screen or external reader trashed in a fit of rage.

Unfortunately, rants on the CivFanatic forum weren't part of the original deal, therefore they don't generate any revenue.
 
Awesome inventions of falsehoods you two, really awesome. Hope you both feel better now. Got it all out your system have we? Good, now maybe someone who can read can make a sensible reply as to why it wouldn't be beneficial to change the way in which combat units compete, baring in mind that practically every other Strategy Computer Game (I only say practically because I obviously haven't played every one ever made) uses a system whereby more advanced troops have significantly less likelihood of dying to vastly inferior troops.

You bleat on about percentages this and percentages that, but as I said in my first post on this topic in this thread, the resultant "rolls" of those stats are in no way whatsoever different from rolling a six sided dice:

Roll a 1 - Unit dies
Roll a 2 - Unit goes to 1 HP and retreats
Roll a 3 - Unit goes to 1 HP and wins
Roll a 4 - Unit goes to 2 HP
Roll a 5 - Unit goes to 3 HP
Roll a 6 - Unit takes no damage

(and this is for 8.3.3. attacking 3.1.1). All those convoluted stats do is mesmerise you into thinking something intelligent is taking place, akin to a highly pretentious student who's using big words without knowing what they mean. Whatever stats are taking place, the end result is almost as dumb as playing Risk with 6 sided dice.

It's not a case of the odd troop getting unstuck, it's not a case of them all dying, it's a case of there being six different outcomes which all occur in equal measure, to which only has any merit when Units are used e-masse. Any stacks of 3 or less have no guarantee of any kind of stat at all, you might as well buy a lottery ticket.

You might be able to find extremely convoluted historical excuses for this by over-highlighting extremely minor cases and ignoring/vastly down-playing the majority common-sense obvious, and you might be able to muster your best inner wit to throw every insult and character assassination tactic you know to attack me, but there's nothing you can say that will change the fact that using 8.3.3 troops to attack 3.1.1 troops is nothing more complicated a system than rolling a 6 sided dice, which for a computer strategy/tactical game is practically unheard of and something any sensible, experienced with the genre person, would be able to identify... as a perfectly normal and understandable discussion topic, to which there wouldn't be any need to justify the situation, but rather discussion about how best to circumvent the awful combat - which is exactly what most guides for the game do.
 
As i said in my previous post, there's an "annoying routine" hidden in the game and your copy must have activated it. Guess why.

But don't despair, there's a code for disabling that feature. It was meant for testing, but the original coder forgot to disable it. From the main screen, you have to type an exact sequence of keys. Nothing will seem to change, but if you keep playing for a while you will notice that the RNG will no longer produce an abnormal amount of annoying results.

The sequence to type is: TOIDINAMAI
 
I don't think Firaxis should try to alter the balance. It's already pretty easy to create a custom scenario if you don't feel that :spear: scenarios should ever happen, there's a decent case to be made for why they shouldn't be impossible, and altering the balance at this point would be silly. IMO, balance patches are among the least valuable ones for games beyond obvious cases (Redcoats and Cossacks in Civ4 Vanilla 1.00, for instance), so I'd rather have Firaxis focus on other things than a balance system that already works pretty well and can easily be changed.
 
the AI should not be able to build Great Wonders with MGLs. but of course should manage to build proper armies from it, as was already said. and use them.

plus should learn to use artillery offensively.
t_x
 
Im curious to know what will be found IF they ever release the code. Maybe they got hidden snakes and a craken inside of it, and thats the reason the game behaves so wildly.
 
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