Help with early expansion!

What is the best method for expanding? By this I mean what order should I build settlers, workers, and things which do not halt my city growth?

I've tried it so many different ways and I am stumped. If I build a settler first, I completely stunt the growth of my first city, cannot work the ground, and fall behind in the wonder/science races.

If I build a worker first, I have accomplished nothing in the wonder/science race, and stunted the growth of my first city for 25 (approx) turns. And I don't always have the neccessary techs to USE the worker. THEN I have to build a settler soon or I will be stuck with one city for far too long for my comfort.

If I build warriors/scouts/barracks/wonders first, and then switch to a settler or a worker, I can expand my city to a size that is useful, contribute to the wonder race, develop my city and not fall behind in science, but when I finally get around to pumping out a settler, other nations have two or three cities, and apparently well developed ones at that.

I want to turn off the fog of war so I can see what the computer is doing that I am not. No matter what I do, I always seem to be behind in early expansion.

I also think I heard something about a penalty for not building settlers/workers right away, that they cost more hammers or something. Did I misread that?

Well I seem to do all right after the inital expansion... the AI seems to slow down and fall behind me after their early lead, but I think that is because they try to fully arm themselves and fight an early war which wastes their time. I've never seen the AI completely conquer another from an early war, and it just wastes time. Humans might benefit from it because they are smart and shoot to kill, not maim. But the AI doesn't seem to get it.

I tend to beat the AI in the science and wonder race after I play catch-up from my early losses, but I was hoping someone would teach me what in the heck I am doing wrong.

Detailed, easy to understand answers are more than welcome. Screenshots to compare even better. Please help!

Please keep responses relevant to Vanilla Civ 4. I don't have mods or expansions. Feel free to include tips on the expansions too, but please include something relevant to Vanilla.
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A foolish leader never asks for help, nor admits ignorance, nor admits error.

Build warriors until you have the correct improvement techs, then build a worker. (Bonus tip: you can build a worker while finishing the tech!)

Find a site for your second city (preferably with food and strategic/luxury resources), guard it with a warrior, then build a settler and another worker.

DaveMcW said:

Build warriors until you have the correct improvement techs, then build a worker. (Bonus tip: you can build a worker while finishing the tech!)

Find a site for your second city (preferably with food and strategic/luxury resources), guard it with a warrior, then build a settler and another worker.

Click to expand...

Good tip.

So there is no conceivable advantage for building a settler first?

Or a worker?

Worker first is possible, if you focus on the improvement techs immediately.

DaveMcW said:

Worker first is possible, if you focus on the improvement techs immediately.

Click to expand...

Yeah, that's the real trick isn't it? I tend to go (mysticism, polytheism, priesthood, masonry, monotheism, [Oracle/Code of laws or Theology], alphabet, [massive tech trade for all missing techs])

So I wait quite a while for some of those techs, but with THAT path, I choose a faction that already has mining or agriculture.

With the above path, it's not that bizarre to end up founding 4 religions AND getting ALL the basic techs, securing the lead. I do tend to avoid trading away alphabet if I can help it.

I think that you MUST build oracle. Waiting 30, 40, or 50 turns for advanced technology is a PAIN. Plus the culture and Great People.

Hey pizza, i recognize you from the M2 forums i read sometimes. the best advice i can give you is you can switch your units around in the que. say, if your city is 1 turn away from expanding, start construction on a granary. once your city expands, switch it back to your settler. building a settler first is tough- you need to make sure you cover the new city from barbarians ASAP. what difficulty are you playing at?

Depends on the situation.
It's good to spit out a worker at size 2 or 3, and when you have proper techs - by the time your city reaches size 4, you should start a setller (an have found a place for him).

Red Patch said:

Hey pizza, i recognize you from the M2 forums i read sometimes. the best advice i can give you is you can switch your units around in the que. say, if your city is 1 turn away from expanding, start construction on a granary. once your city expands, switch it back to your settler. building a settler first is tough- you need to make sure you cover the new city from barbarians ASAP. what difficulty are you playing at?

Click to expand...

Yes, I am the very same pizzaguy, the blitz god incarnate.

Prince level for now... Pizza guy thanks you for your advice.

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Wise men say: only fools run an empire without luxuries, king.

Diamondeye said:

Depends on the situation.
It's good to spit out a worker at size 2 or 3, and when you have proper techs - by the time your city reaches size 4, you should start a setller (an have found a place for him).

Click to expand...

Sounds good.

On my latest campaign I founded Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Confucianism, Taoism, and Islam, and built most of the wonders. I'm a little behind in the science race but I have 11 cities. Looks like a cultural victory.

I managed to achieve such a thing with my usual religion blitz, as well as much smarter worker/settler spitting. I built wonders when I wasn't building settlers, and found alphabet so I could trade for the science I needed.

Prince level, for now...

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I get knocked down, but I get up again... you're never gonna keep me down.

On lower levels (noble/prince), given 2 or more riverside food resources and/or floodplains I prefer to get 3 or 4 scouts/warriors out whilst researching bronze working. Then, when at size 4, whip a worker.

Sir Janus said:

On lower levels (noble/prince), given 2 or more riverside food resources and/or floodplains I prefer to get 3 or 4 scouts/warriors out whilst researching bronze working. Then, when at size 4, whip a worker.

Click to expand...

That's certainly an effective way of doing things!

I'll remember that. I may have to add bronze working to my list of priorities. I am actually just starting to whip. It's not obvious to a noob that whipping is so powerful, so I overlooked it for some time.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/9zgxbl

This contains all the info on my 6 religion rush game on prince level.
2 continents, 7 civilizations, epic speed, large map, did not regenerate map. (Beginning screenshot is number 0028. See save files)
Player: Locutus of the Borg Collective. (Qin Shi Huang, Chinese)

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We are the Borg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

Whipping and chopping surely helps with settlers as workers - as the food ratio is 1:1 when normally producing them, and a whip in a size 3 village is a loss of like 14 food for 30 hammers - more than double as effective. Read the whippin strategy guide - I think Voice Of Unreason wrote a good one, dont remember...

If you start in lots of forests, it's easy to build the first worker, then use queue switching to chop out another worker and a settler while your capital keep on growing and works on warriors for escort and then perhaps an early wonder.

Sometimes I start with more than fifteen forests just in my capital fat cross and I wonder if it was intentional so we can chop and rush our worker/settlers. :/

@mnf: One question about queue switching (Vanilla): If i start building an archer, then start a worker, how do I switch back to the archer before the worker is complete?

production queueing:
- clicking on an item in a production queue delete it
- clicking on a new item put it in the first position of the queue; if no hammer was put into the current first item, it's removed from the queue
- alt-clicking builds indefinitely the ite
- shift-clicking put at the end of the queue

So if you have worker-archer and want to reverse the order, click on the archer to delete it, then build an archer; the hammers are saved.

JujuLautre said:

production queueing:
- clicking on an item in a production queue delete it
- clicking on a new item put it in the first position of the queue; if no hammer was put into the current first item, it's removed from the queue
- alt-clicking builds indefinitely the ite
- shift-clicking put at the end of the queue

So if you have worker-archer and want to reverse the order, click on the archer to delete it, then build an archer; the hammers are saved.

Click to expand...

Also, CTRL+click adds the item on top of the queue, not removing the previous top item if no hammer was invested yet.

Percy said:

Also, CTRL+click adds the item on top of the queue, not removing the previous top item if no hammer was invested yet.

Click to expand...

Hey, good to know, thanks

Actually, I always did my queues with shift; seems more natural to enter the elements in the order in which they will be constructed

Yeah, but sometimes you do need to build something before, like when you discover a tech allowing for an important building that you do not want to delay, or to quickly build/whip a military unit without destroying your whole queue.

Actually, i wish they'd implement a shortcut to add an element in _second_ position. As of now, if you want to finish your build and then build something else, without touching the rest of the queue, you've got to add your future build on top, then remove what you were building and add it again on top. A bit clumsy.

I build worker first, while researching Meditation if I start with Mysticism. Then I go to Agriculture which should be done by the time the worker pops. Do a second worker while researching Mining and Bronze Working. 2 workers can now chop. If I have copper near one of my desired settlement sites, I research Animal Husbandry, otherwise I go straight for Iron Working and find that iron! Troops and settlers come after the second worker.