Patronage -> Consulates broken?

The diplo hit may be small and temporary, but when it adds up with other small things like competition over another CS, wonders, artefacts and WC proposals it can easily push an AI's disposition below neutral. It doesn't need to be hostile, and it doesn't need to lead to war. Guarded status is enough to deny you fair luxury and resource trades and DoF and RAs. I'll sometimes revoke my protection if the CS is bullied by a civ that I want to befriend (because they have luxuries to trade, enough money for RA, cities where I can easily spread my religion, etc.), but I'll stand up if the bully doesn't have anything of value to offer.
 
Jewman said:
I spend entire games of civs telling civs to stop bullying my city-states and as far as I can tell that never really leads to any "serious" diplomatic penalty. Definitely the bonus outweighs this joke of a diplomatic penalty
Click to expand...

Same here, bullying is not a problem for this strat.
 
tommynt said:
This policy is close to useless as I want aly CS not be friends with them
Click to expand...

I agree that it's one of the weaker policies, but I wouldn't call it close to useless.
It can save you money when you discover new CS and already have 20 influence with them, or when you don't really need an alliance because you already have all the resources they would offer you.
 
Patronage is an awesome tree.

It just opens up along with some other nice trees. Its a tough choice sometimes depending on what you need. I've gone commerce just because I was hurting for gold.

Decisions being situational makes the decisions fun.
 
How can anyone call this policy useless? I'm usually able to double up my culture and faith, get lots of extra food in my capital, have a decent stream of military units and increase my global happiness. All without investing any gold. Plus it makes reaching alliances a lot easier. Easily one of the most powerful policies in the whole game and better than any religious belief and most wonders and UAs. What's not to love?
 
2 SPs seems a little too cheap for how great it is (and was, in G+K). I might move it down a level if I was modding (need 3 SPs), OR make it +15 to resting points and have some of the trickier quests grant +5.

One of the problems is how it scales. On a small map, it's just good. On a huge map, it's ridiculous. So if resting point was like "+30 -1 for each tile the CS is away from your closest city (or every 2 tiles it is away from your capital)", that might help with that.
 
e3do said:
How can anyone call this policy useless? I'm usually able to double up my culture and faith, get lots of extra food in my capital, have a decent stream of military units and increase my global happiness. All without investing any gold. Plus it makes reaching alliances a lot easier. Easily one of the most powerful policies in the whole game and better than any religious belief and most wonders and UAs. What's not to love?
Click to expand...

I agree, it's fantastic and I now do it on every game. The passive bonus is good in itself but it also means that you're just a coup/quest away from turning pretty much every CS into an ally. I'm playing on Immortal and I get to a point where over half of all city states are allies and the rest are friends.

Even on a Small map, the passive bonus from Friendly city states is enough to more than pay for the two social policies it takes to get it. And since it's a Classical era tree it often fills a gap you have anyway. Nt sure if it's OP but it's extremely good.
 
headcase said:
2 SPs seems a little too cheap for how great it is (and was, in G+K). I might move it down a level if I was modding (need 3 SPs), OR make it +15 to resting points and have some of the trickier quests grant +5.

One of the problems is how it scales. On a small map, it's just good. On a huge map, it's ridiculous. So if resting point was like "+30 -1 for each tile the CS is away from your closest city (or every 2 tiles it is away from your capital)", that might help with that.
Click to expand...

On the same note, reducing from the default 2:1 ratio to 1:1 on the normal map size also reduces it from extremely good to "merely" very good.

The other thing I was thinking on a mod (given that pledge to protect doesn't seem possible to mod) would be to reduce Consulates to +15 resting as described above, but also have the Patronage finisher and the remaining +5 resting point needed for free friendship.
 
The best solution would probably be to make Pledge to Protect stronger... if "keeping" a Pledge meant you had to actually Officially Denounce the bully, then it might not be a good Idea to just "pledge" everyone

Then you could also make Pledge slightly better... ie make it +15 resting (-30 influence if broken).. and make Papal Primacy and Consulates each +15 resting as well.

Then ANY 2 of them could be used to get friendship. And Consulates itself wouldn't be as strong.
 
Since I can't find the answer to my question, this seems like a good place to ask. How exactly does this social policy work? I watched MadDjinn's LP as Poland where he talks about this, and see his "pledge to protect" kick in when they city-states all become friends with him, but I can't seem to wrap my brain around how this policy works exactly.

Can someone explain to me how this policy "works" exactly?
 
azhskr said:
Since I can't find the answer to my question, this seems like a good place to ask. How exactly does this social policy work? I watched MadDjinn's LP as Poland where he talks about this, and see his "pledge to protect" kick in when they city-states all become friends with him, but I can't seem to wrap my brain around how this policy works exactly.

Can someone explain to me how this policy "works" exactly?
Click to expand...

The idea is that your influence with each city-state always pulls toward a "resting point". That point by default is 0. No matter how much you increase influence (with gifts/quests) or decrease it (by trespassing/demanding tribute) it will reset back to 0 over time.

Pledge to Protect boosts the resting point by 10, and Consulates boosts it by 20, for a total of 30. 30 influence is where CSes become friends. So, when you boost the resting point to 30, each CS with less than 30 influence will gain some influence per turn until it hits 30, then stops - thus making all CSes you've met and pledged to protect friends with you.
 
sock ruh tease said:
The idea is that your influence with each city-state always pulls toward a "resting point". That point by default is 0. No matter how much you increase influence (with gifts/quests) or decrease it (by trespassing/demanding tribute) it will reset back to 0 over time.

Pledge to Protect boosts the resting point by 10, and Consulates boosts it by 20, for a total of 30. 30 influence is where CSes become friends. So, when you boost the resting point to 30, each CS with less than 30 influence will gain some influence per turn until it hits 30, then stops - thus making all CSes you've met and pledged to protect friends with you.
Click to expand...

Awesome, thanks. Does it matter when you do the pledge to protect? Should you wait until the rest point reaches 20, or as long as its above 0 is that all that matters?
 
azhskr said:
Awesome, thanks. Does it matter when you do the pledge to protect? Should you wait until the rest point reaches 20, or as long as its above 0 is that all that matters?
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter when. I would pledge to protect as soon as possible because while consulates is instant, pledge to protect takes time (on average 10 turns) to build up.
 
Johnpecan: Small nitpick. It takes 20 turns from choosing the Consulates policy to have it 'instant'. In effect, all CSs will rise to 20 from 0 (by default) over the 20 turns after you pick the Consulates policy.

This means it behooves you to take Consulates ASAP to get friends the earliest.
 
joncnunn said:
Scanning the thread:

It's not the consulate that is over powered; it's instead the pledge to protect bonus in which there's little reason NOT to sign with every single state on the map. (Unless there is a city state that you actually want to bully yourself.)

Yes; a popup appears from AI bullying; but while the "You will pay" results in red negative text, it has no impact on trade values. (If it's a civ that you have a DOF with doing, they will still continue to pay 240 gold for a spare luxury. If it's not a friend, they'll still trade one of their spare luxuries for one of yours.)
Click to expand...
This. IMO, a "Pledge to Protect" should be treated the same way as a defensive pact, but with the option to change your mind and suffer an influence penalty with that CS. In other words, your options should either be to declare war or to renege on your pledge.
 
Rohili said:
This. IMO, a "Pledge to Protect" should be treated the same way as a defensive pact, but with the option to change your mind and suffer an influence penalty with that CS. In other words, your options should either be to declare war or to renege on your pledge.
Click to expand...

Doesn't have to be DOW, but a forced denouncement or a -30 influence penalty will make people think twice about the pledge.
 
Forcing denounce is a possibility; they would also have to make sure that AI that is happy with your civ thinks twice about bullying a CS under your protection, knowing a denouncement is on the line.

Bonus if the AI is more likely to do it if they want to bully multiple CSs that you're protecting (since you will only denounce once either way); then the more protections you make, the more of a liability it can be.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

E
Last notes 4.4.2
Replies
9
Views
944
greenfieldpark
G
A
  • Locked
  • Poll
[Vote] (6-72) Change Requirements for Pledge of Protection
Replies
11
Views
1K
azum4roll
A
A
  • Locked
[Complex] (6-85a) Siam Rework (Less Extreme)
Replies
12
Views
745
Recursive
Recursive
Enginseer
  • Locked
(4-18) Proposal: Pledge to Protect Military Power Requirement Reduced from 60% to 50%!
Replies
16
Views
1K
Slyceth
Slyceth
Recursive
  • Locked
  • Poll
[Vote] (4-18) City-State PTP Military Requirement Proposals
Replies
2
Views
691
azum4roll
A
Top Bottom