Netherlands Secretly Awesome?

Walter R said:

The first time I played as the Dutch (random roll) I hadn't a clue what I was doing - some would say 'so no change there then'!

But seriously I think you make a great point, it is about learning how to play the civ. I haven't played them nearly often enough to get the best out of the civ; another one on my to-do list I'm afraid.

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And along those lines I decided to start a game as Genghis... I used to play as the Mongols regularly in G&K, but I've had a bit more trouble playing them in BNW....I haven't fully figured it out yet, but it does seem to require a somewhat different approach.

Still a war-monger, of course, but it's the Happiness problem and its effect on the army..... [I think with the Mongols you just have to decide you don't give a s* what any other civ says...and work your trading and luxury requirements around CSs....which, of course, conflicts with one of Mongol's abilities...30% against CSs...but so far, that's what I'm finding.]

I now try to raze all cities I capture except for those I'm not allowed to, or the strategically good ones...... I'm at the point were my Keshiks are just starting to lose their effectiveness, so I'm pausing until I can get up to Artillery which should be good to finish off my main rival....Pocatello...with his wonder-stuffed capital.

At this point I have two of his cities...one of which I razed ...[a slight mistake...as I guess the city had more happiness buildings than I thought....my Unhappiness went from -7 to -10 when that city finally "blinked-out"...]

However, I have a dilemma with the second city he gave me in a peace settlement....it has Petra and Himeji Castle in it.... I don't know whether to raze it or not....it's a fairly bland Petra site, mostly flat desert, but what about the Himeji Castle???

Anyone have any advice???..

Petra's good even without much desert just because of the extra trade route slot. I'd say keep it just for that. It's more valuable than Himeji imo. Petra still turns all that flat desert into plains tiles so it will still be a good city. If happiness is a problem you could raze it or another city down a little then stop before the city is gone. You can do that in the city screen.

Oh yeah, they're epic in mp. UU not till late renaissance, UI not till guilds and not super good till economics, and UA that does pretty much nothing, giving that no-one will trade your last with you (or will at least price it in).

If you're not on the offense, you're not doing it right. So why value Himeji?

I agree, if anything, Petra is what would make that city worthwhile. But not especially so. IMO Petra mostly takes cardboard tiles and makes them not suck, but that doesn't mean they're now super awesome. Petra mostly shines if you have it in a core city or take the religious thing that gives faith. Getting it as a conquest, especially if it's mostly flat desert and not even hills or border an oasis? Meh.

Netherlands is definitely top tier in singleplayer, and DEIC is better than the bazaar. It works from turn 1 until the game ends. You can sell all your luxuries all game, only keeping them for one turn at a time to get wltkd or satisfy a cs quest. It doesn't matter that Arabia can have 12 cotton from the bazaar when there are only 7 other players in the game. Grass start bias is also nice.

In my last Dutch game Amsterdam was on a flood plains start with very few pure desert tiles as well as lots of grassland. I had Petra and 9 Polders. Won veryyyy easily.

I started a thread a while ago debating who the best "resource civ" is. Now that we've all had a chance to play them, who do you think it is? (I added when they become available, because I think that is a very important factor that people tend to overlook as they tend to judge in a vacuum)

Arabia: In addition to gold bonuses, UB Bazaar provides 1 extra copy of each improved Luxury Resource near this city
Available at Currency

Indonesia: First 3 cities founded on continents other than where Indonesia started each provide 2 unique Luxury Resources (Nutmeg, Cloves, and Pepper - these all provide +2 gold in addition)
Available once you can cross coasts or oceans

Netherlands: Retains 50% of the Happiness from a Luxury Resource if your last copy of it is traded away
Available immediately

Portugal: UI Feitoria is built in City-States and allows you to take a copy of their Luxury Resource - You get 2 if you are allied with the City-State
Available at Navigation

redwings1340 said:

In the overall civ and UA threads, the Netherlands didn't fare too well, because their UA was blasted for being a worse version of the bazaar.

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Those threads can bring out the worst in some people, any civ with something aquatic tend to get marked down (UU) as well as for terrain specific bonuses (UI). But yes they do seem to be awesome in the hands of a player who takes the time to take advantage of their uniques. I would certainly be wary if facing them in multi-player

seancolorado said:

I started a thread a while ago debating who the best "resource civ" is.

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No offense, but the premise is flawed. "Best," particularly for this subject (resource UA), is heavily dependent upon map and choice of strategy.

And collateral ramifications of that is that the AI using those civs may not use the UA very intelligently and/or be using a strategy which is not really conducive to the UA. As a result, the human experience is going to be very different from the AI experience (and the human's perception of the worth based upon use by the AI, which is the most frequent place it will be seen and therefore will have a disproportionate impact upon opinions).

For instance, any UA which provides multiple copies (dependent upon trading to get the most worth) or some trading benefit (such as the Netherlands) relies upon the other Civs in a given game having multiple copies to trade with you AND being willing to trade in the first place. So, the player MUST adopt a game strategy which permits having trade partners, the map must be fairly resource rich (so that the AIs have multiple copies to trade), the map must not be crowded (because if the AIs don't have easy expansion room, then they don't have opportunity to get those multiple copies). This also acknowledges that AIs will often trade with each other before the human has a chance to get a trade in, which means that each AI really needs 3-4 or more copies of a resource in order to really ensure the human has full opportunity to trade.

So, if you're on a map which doesn't have good island/subcontinent settling spots, then Indonesia gets voted down. If you're playing with few CSs (advanced game setup), then Portugal gets voted down. If you're playing a warmonger strategy, then Netherlands and Arabia get voted down. etc.

Honestly, there is no "best," other than circumstantially.

A better poll might be to find out what settings really make one of these civs shine. That would also have the benefit of encouraging people to get out of their comfort zone and go try a game with that civ using those settings.

Just me!