Anyone find it bizarre that there is no African Civilization?

Carver · Oct 22, 2005

mossmonster said:
Black to us for purposes of this discussion means of the Negroid racial group, which is not the main population of the Northern African continental coast as already mentioned.

1. You should really speak for yourself, not 'us.'

2. 'Black' is not an ethnicity, it's a physical desription. Black means different things in different places; thus it's a term which will very often confuse rather than clarify the facts.

BlueStar · Oct 22, 2005

Somehow some of this discussion reminds me of the scene in "True Love" when Dennis Hopper is talking to Chris Walken about Sicillians and the Moors and their genetic history-a great scene-a friend of mine always likes to say that anyone whose family has been in this country for a 100 years or so has blood from all kinds of races-Native American-African-whatever- any way I miss the Zulu's and am sure they will be in an expansion-not that I object to Mali at all-to call them just barbarians is a bit much-altho I think they were in mostly as a legendary opponent of England-

Tactician Zhao · Oct 22, 2005

on the "race" of ancient Egyptians, I have read many things, and both sides of the debate.. I do not typically worry about things such as this, but I found it interesting as it was a fierce debate..

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/000813.html

I really have no opinion one way or the other, but the poster has interesting points

#1 Early Kemetians were descendants of Proto-Sahara (African interior) migrants.

#2 Ancient Egyptian culture was indigenous to Africa.

#3 Various traditions and rituals of Kemetians originated the African interior.

#4 The predominantly Black populations of Upper Egypt took the initiative in cultural and military development, and were responsible for the creation of the Egyptian Nation or empire.

#5 Some Ancient Egyptian rituals, traditions and values are still alive, even if the society has undergone significant transformations through foreign influx, conflict, modernization and globalization.

#6 Presence of foreigners in Egypt, in no way negates the African nature or origins of Ancient Egypt.

#7 Ancient Egyptians were definitely not Arabs.

#8 Not all contemporary Egyptians can be called Arab, even if politically Egypt is called an Arab Republic.

#9 Arab doesnt equate to non-black or non-African. In fact Arab origins can be traced back to West Asian and East African roots!

#10 Half castes or mulattos cannot automatically become Caucasian or non-African.

#11 Contemporary Egyptians are still biologically, politically and geographically African!

elderotter · Oct 22, 2005

BlueStar said:
Somehow some of this discussion reminds me of the scene in "True Love" when Dennis Hopper is talking to Chris Walken about Sicillians and the Moors and their genetic history-a great scene-a friend of mine always likes to say that anyone whose family has been in this country for a 100 years or so has blood from all kinds of races-Native American-African-whatever- any way I miss the Zulu's and am sure they will be in an expansion-not that I object to Mali at all-to call them just barbarians is a bit much-altho I think they were in mostly as a legendary opponent of England-

????? is this true...never heard of it. Also do you have a source for that cause it is a rivalry I didn't know about and I would like to educate myself about it.

mossmonster · Oct 22, 2005

Carver said:
1. You should really speak for yourself, not 'us.'

2. 'Black' is not an ethnicity, it's a physical desription. Black means different things in different places; thus it's a term which will very often confuse rather than clarify the facts.

Physical description IS exactly what I meant. I agree it is a tough thing to categorize and a delicate subject to many. What part did you disagree with if Negroid isn't synonymous with Black to Americans? How would you define 'black' otherwise?

vertigofm · Oct 23, 2005

JakeCourtney said:
Why would anyone want to include Africa? They actually went backwards scientificly.

Courtesy of White Imperialism/Colonialism... Followed by a little help from the good ole CIA

EvilGuy · Oct 23, 2005

King Jason said:
As the countries name is The United States of America, their nationality is simply; American. Canada has Canadian, Mexico has Mexicans, Cuba Cubans,etc.

The Reason being, what exactly would you call citizens of a country named the United States of America? Just as if say (like this would happen..) France, Germany, austria, belgium, holland all became one Country called "The grand republic of Europe" Odds are their citizenry would be named "European".

That's one of the technicalities you take on when you name your country after a Continent.

Actually, the french (in France and french Canada) found another way of naming Americans from the US differently from Americans from the American continent (Mexicans, Chilians, canadians etc, are all american)...

In french, a rather new term is being adopted and widely accepted now; The "États-Unis" inhabitants are sometimes called "États-Uniens", which would be be equivalent to United-Stateans or United-Staters or whatever. Yeah it sound strange, but it removes the presence of the word America in the name.

It gives them (the US) a more accurate name and avoids eventual confusion (as if naming 'American' involves the entire continent as a people, when it truely does not.)

Louis XXIV · Oct 23, 2005

vertigofm said:
But then I suppose you could call any country a civilization... I mean what's to say Canada or Cuba is not a civilization? Maybe I'm thinking in a more classical way.

They are all civilizations, just not every civilization is worthy of putting in the game.

BTW, the Egyptians are definately more Middle Eastern than African, although they are sort of the bridge between both.

Crayton · Oct 23, 2005

The people of Zanzibar consider themselves 100% Persian, even though very few physical characteristics distinguish them from the peoples on the mainland of Africa. From an American perspective most of us would consider the people of Zanzibar: African. Just as, most of us consider Egyptians: Arab.

These are both simplifications of the real world. I say, go with definitions. African is 'of Africa'. 'Negroid' and 'Caucasoid' are ranges of physical characteristics. Arabic is a language.

If the question is African Civilizations: Egypt and Mali
If the question is Arabic Civilizations: (Post-Classical)Egypt and Arabia
If the question is Negroid Civilizations: Mali

EDIT: Africa went backwards, scientifically?
Iron Working was first invented in Africa.
The greatest University for nearly a century was in Timbuctu.
The only time a people move backwards in knowledge is when a continuem of knowledge (i.e. library or internet) is destroyed.

Stevenpfo · Oct 23, 2005

I don't know why people from other partws of the world have a hard time accepting the term American in regard to people from the USA. That is what they call themselves. To ask them to change it just because you're sensitive to the term would be like me asking you to change the name you call your country.

I also think America should be in the game as a civ. It is the predominant culture in the world right now.

thehouse · Oct 23, 2005

The Zulu were never a civ that was like having the Sioux. I'm even part Sioux but they just don't belong in a game like Civ. its like the people who want the native australians, A tribe is not a Civilization which builds mighty cities and great works.

elderotter · Oct 23, 2005

thehouse said:
The Zulu were never a civ that was like having the Sioux. I'm even part Sioux but they just don't belong in a game like Civ. its like the people who want the native australians, A tribe is not a Civilization which builds mighty cities and great works.

I agree in part... about the Zulu and the Sioux. I disagree that mighty cities is necessarily a mandatory trait for a Civilization.

Crayton · Oct 23, 2005

I thought Civilization, by definition, was Urban (not neccesarily: mighty cities) and had a unique culture (set of traditions). That definition is from an Archaeology class, so it may not apply. Plus, you are right, the term 'civilization' can be a little more maleable, especially when applied to a game.

thehouse · Oct 23, 2005

well the very first thing you do in the game is found a city of 10,000 people. If a "civ" has never even done that it should not be in the game.

CdGGambit · Oct 23, 2005

EvilGuy said:
Actually, the french (in France and french Canada) found another way of naming Americans from the US differently from Americans from the American continent (Mexicans, Chilians, canadians etc, are all american)...

In french, a rather new term is being adopted and widely accepted now; The "États-Unis" inhabitants are sometimes called "États-Uniens", which would be be equivalent to United-Stateans or United-Staters or whatever. Yeah it sound strange, but it removes the presence of the word America in the name.

It gives them (the US) a more accurate name and avoids eventual confusion (as if naming 'American' involves the entire continent as a people, when it truely does not.)

I seriously doubt anyone in the United States will suddenly call for changing our common name of "Americans" to something French.

Seriously.

Red Door · Oct 23, 2005

EvilGuy said:
Actually, the french (in France and french Canada) found another way of naming Americans from the US differently from Americans from the American continent (Mexicans, Chilians, canadians etc, are all american)...

In french, a rather new term is being adopted and widely accepted now; The "États-Unis" inhabitants are sometimes called "États-Uniens", which would be be equivalent to United-Stateans or United-Staters or whatever. Yeah it sound strange, but it removes the presence of the word America in the name.

It gives them (the US) a more accurate name and avoids eventual confusion (as if naming 'American' involves the entire continent as a people, when it truely does not.)

But when you say Americans, how many people think of people from a country besides the United States?

Paradoxus · Oct 23, 2005

This only applies in an international sense. We could care less what you call Americans. We call each other Americans period. Actually the majority of us are mutts from throughout the world and other civilizations come together to create a new world.
It is actually very common question for an american to ask another american "what nationality are you?" it is also common practice to guess ones nationality by their last name. "Ahh Mr Van Der Weergen, your Norwegian arent you?"
I am Norweigian and Irish myself, but I am an American.

CrazyMrLeo · Oct 23, 2005

EvilGuy said:
Actually, the french (in France and french Canada) found another way of naming Americans from the US differently from Americans from the American continent (Mexicans, Chilians, canadians etc, are all american)...

In french, a rather new term is being adopted and widely accepted now; The "États-Unis" inhabitants are sometimes called "États-Uniens", which would be be equivalent to United-Stateans or United-Staters or whatever. Yeah it sound strange, but it removes the presence of the word America in the name.

It gives them (the US) a more accurate name and avoids eventual confusion (as if naming 'American' involves the entire continent as a people, when it truely does not.)

To be fair, when someone refers to an inhabitant of the continents, they typically use the term "North American" or "South American" The word "American" has evolved beyond its original broad sense and become a more specific term, and while it CAN be used to refer to an entire hemisphere, most people find that meaning to be rather archaic.

I live in Canada, and if someone called me an American, I'd probably tell them that they were using the wrong term. =P

Pazarius · Oct 23, 2005

JakeCourtney said:
Why would anyone want to include Africa? They actually went backwards scientificly.

vertigofm said:
Courtesy of White Imperialism/Colonialism... Followed by a little help from the good ole CIA

I think JakeCourtney is referring to an era well before colonialism.

And the colonial era may have been bad for Africa in many ways, but in terms of scientific development alone I would thought that Africa generally benefited, even if only in a marginal, unintentional way just by being exposed to recent European advancements.

Corlindale · Oct 23, 2005

According to one of the most generally accepted theories of human origin, the human race first developed in Africa. So, in effect, ALL the included civilizations are African, if you go way back.

Anyone find it bizarre that there is no African Civilization?

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