Unpopular Opinion Thread

drewisfat said:

I agree with Fippy that rexing and worker numbers are overrated. I think the common wisdom is that you want enough workers that you can build every useful improvement when the city is ready to work that tile. But I think that's merely the obvious upper limit for how many workers you should have, as it fails to take into account the opportunity cost of the actual worker itself, and tile swapping / micro techniques.

But how dare you call into question quick speed

My personal ones:
- Mouseketeers are a top 10 UU.
- GP farm cities are unnecessary and usually inefficient.
- Globe Theater is extremely overrated.
- Oracle is extremely overrated.
- Navies are useless besides subs and transports.
- ORG is a bottom tier trait on pangaea maps.

Click to expand...

Wow, those are quite some unpopular opinions you've got there

-musketeers? Really? Do you cuir/cav rush in every single game?
-GP farm overrated??? Seriously?
I've noticed that a GP farm pretty much makes or breaks the game. Note, however, that to me a GP farm could also be a city spamming wonders, just any city that's producing a lot of great people.

TheMulattoMaker said:

I never use State Property. Like, literally never- I can't think of a single time in any game where I've ever switched to SP.

Then again, back in my uber-noob days I didn't see the point of Slavery and ran Serfdom for the whole game, so give me time, I guess...

Click to expand...

SP is da bomb. +10% hammers is usually almost as much as a corporation would give anyway, plus you can build more workshops/watermills, and you don't ahve to have a great engineer or spam corporate execs everywhere.

drewisfat said:

- Globe Theater is extremely overrated.
- ORG is a bottom tier trait on pangaea maps.

Click to expand...

!!!!!!

From my experience, SP is very strong and always available.

Corporations (Mining and a food one) not always, far from it indeed, but, when/if the things are
right to it, is clearly the strongest option.

fed1943 said:

From my experience, SP is very strong and always available.

Corporations (Mining and a food one) not always, far from it indeed, but, when/if the things are
right to it, is clearly the strongest option.

Click to expand...

It took me a long time to come around on SP (too wowed by shiny corporations), but when I did - Wow, what a difference, especially when warring or in a space race. Now it is extremely rare that I'll pop out of SP if the game gets that far. The overall hammers and actual workable workshops are just too good. Your point about "when/if the things are right" for corps is just too rare to rely on.

noto2 said:

Wow, those are quite some unpopular opinions you've got there

-musketeers? Really? Do you cuir/cav rush in every single game?
-GP farm overrated??? Seriously?
I've noticed that a GP farm pretty much makes or breaks the game. Note, however, that to me a GP farm could also be a city spamming wonders, just any city that's producing a lot of great people.

Click to expand...

When I'm the French I try to cuir rush every game lol. And you play kmod don't you?, where they're even better.

Not building a GP farm always makes my game though
Problems with GP farm, i.e. one city building almost all your great people constantly throughout the game:
- Pacifism/caste you want to run GP during these, and not otherwise.
- Golden ages also boost GP production.
- GP aren't nearly equally important throughout the game. They peak in the mid game with bulbs towards libs and military breakouts. After that they're pretty much useless, you'll save three for maybe a final golden age.
- Less control of GP in GP farm. People always complain about GP pollution, but if you are building GP from several cities, you can pretty much lock in which GP the minor cities will build, and the random one your wonder/national wonder city pops out doesn't matter as much.
- A strong GP farm means any small GP contribution from minor cities will not be able to make a great person for the entire game, as the cap just increases.
- A GP farm candidate city is usually a city with a lot of food (A super good city). Silly to waste it on GP all game

vincentz said:

I. like. espionage.... and corporations...

Click to expand...

Yeah I think they are implemented really well.

I dont like rushes (axe/chariot etc), whipping and beelining...

Click to expand...

I can't rush and I feel bad whipping. I never use slavery

I am disgusted with myself if I reload or cheat. I'd rather just let the game die.

Click to expand...

Just when I thought we could be friends...

drewisfat said:

When I'm the French I try to cuir rush every game lol. And you play kmod don't you?, where they're even better.

Not building a GP farm always makes my game though
Problems with GP farm, i.e. one city building almost all your great people constantly throughout the game:
- Pacifism/caste you want to run GP during these, and not otherwise.
- Golden ages also boost GP production.
- GP aren't nearly equally important throughout the game. They peak in the mid game with bulbs towards libs and military breakouts. After that they're pretty much useless, you'll save three for maybe a final golden age.
- Less control of GP in GP farm. People always complain about GP pollution, but if you are building GP from several cities, you can pretty much lock in which GP the minor cities will build, and the random one your wonder/national wonder city pops out doesn't matter as much.
- A strong GP farm means any small GP contribution from minor cities will not be able to make a great person for the entire game, as the cap just increases.
- A GP farm candidate city is usually a city with a lot of food (A super good city). Silly to waste it on GP all game

Click to expand...

Admittedly it's only immortal difficulty, but my last two wins on that difficulty had no GP farm... it did have a globe theater super-draft city in one of them though. Globe theater usually sucks (I build it way less often than a national epic), but every now and again, it's amazing. But I can kind of agree with your gp farm thing. I get a lot of my gp's during (a) golden age pacifism push(es). As long as I have enough to bulb what I really need (astro or education, and in one of the games, a merchant currency bulb) and get 3 golden ages not including taj mahal (which I usually try to get) without a gp farm, I'm not sure what more I could expect from using a gp farm.

I will say the larger the map, the better a gp farm should be (sacrificing one city's optimal growth for the empire's "optimal" growth is a better and better trade off the less that one city represents), but that assumption relies on you getting "your fair share" during the game, which I find only really happens when I'm taking over the world anyway (ie when the key stuff is passed).

My main problem, though, is getting the Nat'l epic out quickly; in the cities it should be best in (wonder city or farm city) it doesn't really fit; I like to make my best hammer city the heroic epic city (and it usually has a an early wonder or two in it), and my next best IW if it gets that far (my games usually make it to steel though, so yeah), and my farm city doesn't have any hammers for making the damn epic, and I'm generally loathe to keep forests to chop it out.

I like events and huts! (They add 'spice' to my life! Haha)

I like them also, but Mostly I like combat determined by random based on on the odds.

I enjoy playing with vassal states on

I allow random events

*cue a round of boos from the audience*

I love random events. They are just so random and eventful that they make the game interesting.

drewisfat said:

When I'm the French I try to cuir rush every game lol. And you play kmod don't you?, where they're even better.

Not building a GP farm always makes my game though
Problems with GP farm, i.e. one city building almost all your great people constantly throughout the game:
- Pacifism/caste you want to run GP during these, and not otherwise.
- Golden ages also boost GP production.
- GP aren't nearly equally important throughout the game. They peak in the mid game with bulbs towards libs and military breakouts. After that they're pretty much useless, you'll save three for maybe a final golden age.
- Less control of GP in GP farm. People always complain about GP pollution, but if you are building GP from several cities, you can pretty much lock in which GP the minor cities will build, and the random one your wonder/national wonder city pops out doesn't matter as much.
- A strong GP farm means any small GP contribution from minor cities will not be able to make a great person for the entire game, as the cap just increases.
- A GP farm candidate city is usually a city with a lot of food (A super good city). Silly to waste it on GP all game

Click to expand...

Yes I play Kmod but I've always hated the musketeer unit, even since Civ 3, when it was horrible back then as well. Even in Kmod I think the musketeer is rather dull. Perhaps I should try a game with it and really give it a chance.

As for GP farms... when I say a GP farm makes or breaks the game, I mean that as early as possible I try to generate GP, and eventually I settle a city with the express intent of generating GP from it. By doing so I generate a lot of GP very early on, when they matter most.

There have been games where I haven't done that, usually because I'm too busy in an early war or just haven't really been paying attention, and I notice I fall far behind in tech. There was an article on here a long time ago showing how efficient it was to generate your GP from one city. The game really rewards specialization. If I have one amazing GP farm it will produce farm more GP than 10 mediocre GP farms. I find one city that has production to build stuff like wonders and the national epic, and enough food to hire many, many specialists. That city can pump out a ridiculous number of GP, far more than I'd get from trying to obtain them from several cities.
As for GP pollution, I don't really find that to be a problem, to be honest. If I really want engineers I know how to get them... and I usually get mostly scientists, which is what I'm after. If the odd merchant, spy, or artist shows up I don't mind, they can be quite useful. Prophets are ok for building shrines and early game are great to settle. Later on they can be used for golden ages.

I think Civ IV has been played out and that there's nothing really left to say about it.

noto2 said:

There have been games where I haven't done that, usually because I'm too busy in an early war or just haven't really been paying attention, and I notice I fall far behind in tech. There was an article on here a long time ago showing how efficient it was to generate your GP from one city. The game really rewards specialization. If I have one amazing GP farm it will produce farm more GP than 10 mediocre GP farms. I find one city that has production to build stuff like wonders and the national epic, and enough food to hire many, many specialists. That city can pump out a ridiculous number of GP, far more than I'd get from trying to obtain them from several cities.
As for GP pollution, I don't really find that to be a problem, to be honest. If I really want engineers I know how to get them... and I usually get mostly scientists, which is what I'm after.

Click to expand...

That article is very theoretical and thus misses quite a few factors. It's also pre-BTS.

BTS introduces important things:
- Literature is reached through Aesthetics rather than Alphabet
- Golden Ages allows for free civic swaps.

The first change makes the National Epic a lot less desirable. The second makes using a GA to switch to caste+pacifism a very solid alternative to the dedicated GP-farm.

PHI makes multi-city GPP even more attractive and the NE less attractive.

Caste and pacifism are good for a GP farm too. Even without the NE, you're still going to generate most of your GP from one city, the city with the most specialists... I didn't play Civ much pre BTS, I got it at warlords and BTS came out not long after, so I don't remember the pre BTS tech tree.

What exactly are you doing anyway, hiring many specialists in all of your cities?

Sure, I get a few GP from cities other than my GP farm, especially early game, but I don't see how you've argued against a GP farm. I still see the game rewarding specialization. I'll build a few wonders in a city and after I'm finished building the early wonders, I'll build the NE, once that's done I hire as many specialists as possible. That one city will produce GP really fast, just as fast if not faster than hiring them all over my empire, and what that does is save me the need to hire specialists elsewhere, that means my other cities can focus on production and commerce. Unless I built the pyramids and am running representation early, I don't really want to be hiring tons of specialists all over the place anyway.

noto2 said:

Caste and pacifism are good for a GP farm too. Even without the NE, you're still going to generate most of your GP from one city, the city with the most specialists... I didn't play Civ much pre BTS, I got it at warlords and BTS came out not long after, so I don't remember the pre BTS tech tree.

What exactly are you doing anyway, hiring many specialists in all of your cities?

Sure, I get a few GP from cities other than my GP farm, especially early game, but I don't see how you've argued against a GP farm. I still see the game rewarding specialization. I'll build a few wonders in a city and after I'm finished building the early wonders, I'll build the NE, once that's done I hire as many specialists as possible. That one city will produce GP really fast, just as fast if not faster than hiring them all over my empire, and what that does is save me the need to hire specialists elsewhere, that means my other cities can focus on production and commerce. Unless I built the pyramids and am running representation early, I don't really want to be hiring tons of specialists all over the place anyway.

Click to expand...

NE(+Forum) is the only GPP multiplier that is city specific. All the others(GA,PHI,parthenon,pacifism) are all nationwide and non of those requires you to build city-specific infrastructure like gold and science does.

You usually want to stay in Slavery+Organized Religion for most of the time when GPP matters and a GP-farm will be left with only a 100% modifier from the NE. In addition, your GP-farm need specialist slots and those will cost you hammer-investments. And lets not forget the cost of researching literature early.

All these factors contribute to making it very efficient to produce GP in bursts across several cities in a GA while starving those cities. That gives you a 200% modifier and access to all the specialist-slots you can use.

drewisfat said:

But how dare you call into question quick speed

My personal ones:
- Mouseketeers are a top 10 UU.
- GP farm cities are unnecessary and usually inefficient.
- Globe Theater is extremely overrated.
- Oracle is extremely overrated.
- Navies are useless besides subs and transports.
- ORG is a bottom tier trait on pangaea maps.

Click to expand...

TO is great if you can build it safely between 1500 – 1000 BC, on normal speed with Marble and/or an Industrious leader. Before 1500BC, there are better things to build and there is too much to lose if the AI snipes it (likely on Deity/Immortal).

GP farms are efficient with Marble, due to TGL + NE synergy. Otherwise, yeah, people place too much emphasis on these.

Why build Transports when Galleons do the job sooner and for fewer hammers per transported unit?

----

Mine, (for single player, with normal speed and settings):

• Unless the surrounding land is spectacularly bad, access to Marble lowers the difficulty of any game by one, i.e. a Deity win with Marble = an Immortal win without Marble.
• The Forum is a top 10 building for non-Conquest/AP games.
• Gems starts are massively overrated, because your second and third cities are invariably surrounded by the Jungle.
• TGW is one of the worst wonders in the game, and if you build it you should feel bad.

I know the last of these will prove especially unpopular.

Doshin said:

[*]TGW is one of the worst wonders in the game, and if you build it you should feel bad.[/LIST]

Click to expand...

*puts Doshy on isolated deity, with a nice long tundra & ice landscape full of let's call them wandering Eskimos*