Shooting the Moon tips

Oh, for goodness sakes. Continue the game and let's see who's right.

I don't have BULL so I'm curious what happens next.
 
Are you talking about the idea to start on rice? Sorry, I haven't even started that one yet.

I have taken the next turnset in the current game, though. Again, I decided to go on a bit longer because nothing new and exciting has happened. I quit when I got my second city out ("SRP" stands for short-run production city. I know, quite the colorful name :p).

Here's the screenshot:
Spoiler :



Just like I said I was going to, I went for AH, didn't see any horses, continued to archery. I've just started BW a turn or two ago I'm going to get BW soon. Next goal is TW and Pottery.

Oh yeah, my first warrior died to a barb archer long before I got a chance to build my first warrior. I was sooo glad that I didn't have raging barbs on in this game.
 
Oh. Going for BW as my second tech would've been much stronger than what I did. What do you normally use to choose between AH vs. BW when you don't have meat in your BFC?

I admit that I should've realized that I wouldn't need AH for the cows until significantly later.
 
What do you normally use to choose between AH vs. BW when you don't have meat in your BFC?

I am no big fan of Horse Archers, so I usually go for BW in almost every case.
No animals in capital, and no animals in the best candidate spot for city #2 makes me go BW before AH every time.
If I have a animal at city site #2.. I might go AH first, depends.

BW usually boosts your production significantly, and it open up a wide array of choices.
You can whip // chop at will.

AH don't do anything really.





A sidenote for when I DO go AH first, I might go for pottery as well, and get a very cheap early writing.
But it depends on the situation. :)
Early open borders can be quite neat though.
 
About the rice debate.

Since it is flatland gems, and almost all of the surroundings are green, the city doesn't need that much food.
One can farm some riverside later to grow it.
Settling on the rice is a option imo.

I still consider it a very bad option though...
There is really no reason to skip Agri.
We need agri for AH and eventually for pottery.
We have two gems, which make it possible to research alot anyway.

Settling on the rice is a typical case of trying to be smart, when it isn't necessery.

_____________________________________________________

Also

I strongly disagree with the decision to go for hunting. That was uncalled for that early in the game.
Archery is imo a fallback, not a first option.

The pre-req bonus for AH is neat, but it doesn't justify going for hunting when there is no immediate need for archers, and there is no hunting resource around!

Hunting+archery+AH, have delayed BW and TW so much, that you don't have a road connecting SRP with the capital, a improvement that takes 3 workerturns and yields 2 extra commerce.
This should not be happening with dual gems. :)
 
My untrained eye thinks that settling your 2nd city on the plains hill between the rice and cows would've been better than where you did, since you do have AH and Agri, and with Archery a hill city to defend against barbs strikes me as being desirable. I think it'd give the same number of hammers pre-monument, so the only downside I can see is that your empire would be slightly further spread.
 
My untrained eye thinks that settling your 2nd city on the plains hill between the rice and cows would've been better than where you did, since you do have AH and Agri, and with Archery a hill city to defend against barbs strikes me as being desirable. I think it'd give the same number of hammers pre-monument, so the only downside I can see is that your empire would be slightly further spread.

That forfeits the oasis, makes tile-sharing impossible.
And one would also have to make two more roads.

I think the location of STP is fine.
Cross your fingers for some iron/copper on the desert hills, and that will be a very nice production city.
 
That forfeits the oasis, makes tile-sharing impossible.
And one would also have to make two more roads.

I think the location of STP is fine.
Cross your fingers for some iron/copper on the desert hills, and that will be a very nice production city.

This. Also, I'd heard that Deity maintenance costs were unbelievable. Since we're talking diagonals from the capital, we're talking about a distance of 7.5 tiles vs. 4.5. Without a traderoute, that's a killer distance.

Lastly, I'm hoping that there's more land that I can settle just beyond.
 
This. Also, I'd heard that Deity maintenance costs were unbelievable. Since we're talking diagonals from the capital, we're talking about a distance of 7.5 tiles vs. 4.5. Without a traderoute, that's a killer distance.

Lastly, I'm hoping that there's more land that I can settle just beyond.

You have double gems, don't sweat the maintenance. The only tiles you are looking to share are a couple of flood plains and your capital has wet rice and food neutral gems.

EDIT- ...I'm disappointed in the lack of depth to these discussions. I hate to point out azzaman's reputation to help drive his suggestion but there it is. Don't look for a set of rules to approach different situations in identical ways, the right move may lie outside of that box.
 
EDIT- ...I'm disappointed in the lack of depth to these discussions. I hate to point out azzaman's reputation to help drive his suggestion but there it is. Don't look for a set of rules to approach different situations in identical ways, the right move may lie outside of that box.

You're right. I am blindly following the orthodoxy. It's not because I always believe that's the right approach, though. I'm following it because this game is three or four levels above what I normally play and yet I'm seeing the advice after I play the set. I'm following it because I carefully consider my alternatives, realize that I don't know everything and go with what I think is right. Such a strategy will usually miss the more creative answers. Sorry for getting defensive, but people keep arguing things that I've thought about and dismissed and then they don't back-up their claims with anything of substance.

I know, it's my fault that the peanut gallery is reacting to my moves instead of advising me forward. I played the first set through without waiting for advice, my commentary is dry and sparse, and I am playing this in a way that makes it difficult for others to shadow (Marathon and requiring a mod).

As for reputation: yeah, it does matter to me in this case because he said "to his untrained eye." For all I knew, he was somebody who just really liked cows for some reason. And even then, I tried to be respectful. I told him that I had considered that very spot (it's a spot that I'd normally go for in a Monarch game, btw), but decided against it. So far, he still hasn't responded.

So, here we are. I apologize for giving you all a fait accompli. Unless people speak up, I'm going to start over and we can go through everything together. How does that sound? In return, I hope that you can offer advice before I make the decision.
 
Thanks for not taking offense, you're right a lot of this is hypothetical to begin with and is then being discussed after the fact. :lol: Less than ideal I admit, but you could replay the start a few different ways if you thought it would help.

No apology required and if you think a new thread and approach would be beneficial go for it. Your commentary is fine, I was following this thread with some interest and I think if you had played a bit further there might have been more to go on.

EDIT-

For all I knew, he was somebody who just really liked cows for some reason.

:thumbsup:
 
Ok, thanks, TheWilltoAct. I'm going to count that as one vote for starting over and seeing what happens.

Should I play the same map or start over? I'll be honest and admit I'm not used to a gems start, much less double gems. So, this should stretch my comfort zone even further ;)

Now I can't stop thinking about the "settle on rice" idea anyway. Settling the rice might be a mistake (given that I don't know about the cows or fish), but maybe I should stop working the rice at size 2?
 
Oh. Going for BW as my second tech would've been much stronger than what I did. What do you normally use to choose between AH vs. BW when you don't have meat in your BFC?

I admit that I should've realized that I wouldn't need AH for the cows until significantly later.

At Marathon?

If I have mining, I go BW almost always. Otherwise I think very hard about it.

Researching both mining and BW takes, what, 80 turns?
 
Ok, thanks, TheWilltoAct. I'm going to count that as one vote for starting over and seeing what happens.

Should I play the same map or start over? I'll be honest and admit I'm not used to a gems start, much less double gems. So, this should stretch my comfort zone even further ;)

Now I can't stop thinking about the "settle on rice" idea anyway. Settling the rice might be a mistake (given that I don't know about the cows or fish), but maybe I should stop working the rice at size 2?

Settle on the rice. Go BW first. Test it out.

Don't just do things because more people say you should do it. Test it out yourself. That way even if it's a mistake you can EXPLAIN to yourself why it's a mistake. And if it's not, you would have learned something useful.

My argument for settling on the rice is that:

1. You can skip Agri until you have BW. Which you need.
2. It helps grow your city faster to work the gems.
3. You get a MUCH earlier settlers and worker.

Your city placement will then concentrate on getting the gold mines and the bronze, for a production-and commerce-heavy set-up. As IMP and EXP, this will not slow down your expansion. You'll also have more deal with barbs and unpleasant neighbors.
 
krikav did a logical assessment of the settle on Rice idea and even in the favorable light of our food neutral start it isn't especially compelling. Food specials are powerhouse tiles, they almost always deserve to be farmed and worked all game. To sacrifice such a long term benefit for a negligible gain (an immediate +1 :food:) is the definition of a gambit.

Spoiler :
Krikav's analysis
About the rice debate.

Since it is flatland gems, and almost all of the surroundings are green, the city doesn't need that much food.
One can farm some riverside later to grow it.
Settling on the rice is a option imo.

I still consider it a very bad option though...
There is really no reason to skip Agri.
We need agri for AH and eventually for pottery.
We have two gems, which make it possible to research alot anyway.

Settling on the rice is a typical case of trying to be smart, when it isn't necessery.
 
I got another question or two for you, MGR. Let's say I did settle on the rice. Lo and behold, I discover cows. Would you recommend I research AH or BW next? And if I go for AH, would I waste five turns going for Agri (which is not immediately useful, but is a solid tech to have) or get hunting? If I go for BW, how many chops can I expect before the barbs come?

Lastly, I'm a little confused--where are the barb spearmen? Playing without Raging Barbs is nerve wracking :lol:
 
That forfeits the oasis, makes tile-sharing impossible.
And one would also have to make two more roads.

I think the location of STP is fine.
Cross your fingers for some iron/copper on the desert hills, and that will be a very nice production city.

It's not that STP is in a bad spot, but given that we have Archery and Animal Husbandry, the key tiles on the hill city are workable.

This. Also, I'd heard that Deity maintenance costs were unbelievable. Since we're talking diagonals from the capital, we're talking about a distance of 7.5 tiles vs. 4.5. Without a traderoute, that's a killer distance.

Lastly, I'm hoping that there's more land that I can settle just beyond.

With 14 :commerce: coming from your two gem mines, maintenance isn't a big concern right now.

You have double gems, don't sweat the maintenance. The only tiles you are looking to share are a couple of flood plains and your capital has wet rice and food neutral gems.

EDIT- ...I'm disappointed in the lack of depth to these discussions. I hate to point out azzaman's reputation to help drive his suggestion but there it is. Don't look for a set of rules to approach different situations in identical ways, the right move may lie outside of that box.

I've got to point out that I'm only a Emperor player myself, so I don't have much practical experience at Immortal/Deity. I definitely wouldn't be claiming my way is right, or that the way Um the Muse went is wrong.

So, here we are. I apologize for giving you all a fait accompli. Unless people speak up, I'm going to start over and we can go through everything together. How does that sound? In return, I hope that you can offer advice before I make the decision.

It's your attempt at Deity, not ours. ;) There's nothing wrong with how you're doing things as is, so don't feel any pressure to restart. Personally, I think it'd be of more value to see how this start pans out.

Settle on the rice. Go BW first. Test it out.

Don't just do things because more people say you should do it. Test it out yourself. That way even if it's a mistake you can EXPLAIN to yourself why it's a mistake. And if it's not, you would have learned something useful.

My argument for settling on the rice is that:

1. You can skip Agri until you have BW. Which you need.
2. It helps grow your city faster to work the gems.
3. You get a MUCH earlier settlers and worker.

Your city placement will then concentrate on getting the gold mines and the bronze, for a production-and commerce-heavy set-up. As IMP and EXP, this will not slow down your expansion. You'll also have more deal with barbs and unpleasant neighbors.

If it were dry rice instead of riverside rice, I'd agree. However, you're losing a 5:food: 1:commerce: tile for an extra food in the capital, which I don't think is a worthwhile trade off.
 
krikav did a logical assessment
No offense to him, but he did not do a logical assessment. He did some combination of heuristic reasoning and rationalizing.

A logical assessment would compare and contrast alternatives.

To sacrifice such a long term benefit for a negligible gain (an immediate +1 :food:) is the definition of a gambit.
That's not the gain. The gain is:
  • Faster worker
  • A couple extra food early
  • Earlier commerce
  • Much Earlier Bronze Working (which translates into earlier chopping, faster expansion)
  • You can start diverting :food: to settlers/workers earlier (size 2, rather than 3)
  • You effectively have an extra citizen, since one isn't devoted to the rice.
  • (consequence of the previous point:) Full early-game :hammers: potential from tiles reached at size 5 rather than 6.
The cost:
  • 1 :food: overall potential
  • The capital will not be able to share the flood plains
  • The capital will may require grassland farms when it's time to grow. (It might be good to just work mined grassland hills or grassland cottages -- I haven't run the numbers)
  • You're pretty much locked into a rapid expansion plan over the very short term
 
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