Indonesia discussion

Devell said:

I suppose, but I never like to re roll. At least with the Celts or with Carthage you can move your settler for a few turns to find a better location. You don't need to wait a hundred turns.

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Actually, one should NEVER move their initial settler so they can't settle on their first turn,.. I mean, you lose SO much because of that.

I think it should be more like this: Indonesia's capital would get 2 lux resources (1 of the 3 cities). If it is too powerfull then they should get the lux. resources availabla after researching calendar.

But from UA description I understand it as: the first 3 cities with the exception of the capital build on a different continent without cities from Indonesia will get the lux. resources.

But now that I am trying to explain it, how would one give a short description for the case of the capital is 1 of 3 cities?

@TKOBO: I respectfully disagree. I think its fine spending a few turns looking for a better start, if the one you have is no good. My whole point is though, that Indonesia don't even have that option. You're going to have to at least get sailing and a trireme before you even know.

TheKingOfBigOz said:

Actually, one should NEVER move their initial settler so they can't settle on their first turn,.. I mean, you lose SO much because of that.

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?????
moving one or two turns might get you a much better spot.

while on the first few difficulties (Settler-Prince) you probably can afford moving away, I seriously doubt that it's wise to move away on higher dififculties where the AI begins to get major bonuses, the more you wait before settling the more you are behind in everything (from Policies to most improtant Technology).

Calouste said:

Not wrong at all. I do that a lot as well. And in BNW, with the Exploration tree and the Lighthouse giving food and production on each sea resource, it's going to be even more useful.

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And don't forget about domestic trade routes - pumping a new city with 9 food and/or production per turn is going to get it up and running fast!

TheKingOfBigOz said:

while on the first few difficulties (Settler-Prince) you probably can afford moving away, I seriously doubt that it's wise to move away on higher dififculties where the AI begins to get major bonuses, the more you wait before settling the more you are behind in everything (from Policies to most improtant Technology).

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Many deity players move their initial settler - usually to settle on a hill. It's really very common.

TheKingOfBigOz said:

Actually, one should NEVER move their initial settler so they can't settle on their first turn,.. I mean, you lose SO much because of that.

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I've moved for a turn to settle next a nice little mountain.

TheKingOfBigOz said:

Two words : Beeline for Optics and Beeline for those Settlers.

Besides, in a way this is a good thign because it balances their UA, do be aware that they get two copies of the resources, both for trade, but usually that one is only for them meaning they get extra happiness without having to worry about expanding and criplling due to negative happiness.

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The one downside to this strategy is in MP where players will know exactly what Indonesia is up to and that they're a prime target for cap city invasion.

So it might still be better in MP to focus on a strong capital and land presence before beelining to expand across the sea.

If anything, what this really says to me is that Indonesia has the option to place 3 extra coastal cities on really bad real-estate that nobody else would settle. Doesn't mean they have to rush to do it. In fact, it kind of means they don't have to rush because nobody else will want that land.

TheKingOfBigOz said:

Actually, one should NEVER move their initial settler so they can't settle on their first turn,.. I mean, you lose SO much because of that.

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No. Move the settler. It's more importssnt that you get a good captial city location for the rest of the game i.e. several hundred turns of benefit. Don't bother with the early wonders and you'll be back up to speed in no time.
If you're talking about settler rush with e.g. the Huns then yes, that's harder to do effectively on deity, but for normal civs, move to the best spot. Hell, explore for a couple of turns if you want. It can be worth it if your start is crummy.

Okay okay I get the idea can we go back to discussing the sumo wrestler.. I mean Gajah Mada?

TheKingOfBigOz said:

Okay okay I get the idea can we go back to discussing the sumo wrestler.. I mean Gajah Mada?

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*lol* this is the prologue of the shaka vs mada thread *lol*

what bothers me, is how the mechanism of sea trade routes is, and how to pillage them.
After you beeline astronomy, rushbuy settlers, rush build ships, an then my enemy can break my game with only 1 ship... Well that is not fun at all

TheKingOfBigOz said:

Actually, one should NEVER move their initial settler so they can't settle on their first turn,.. I mean, you lose SO much because of that.

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Did you know that you get an extra hammer in your city for settling on a hill? Spending just one turn to move onto a hill will pay for itself by the next turn. The benefits over the long term are quite a bit larger and I'm both too tired and not enough of a mathematician to care to crunch the numbers.

TheKingOfBigOz said:

Actually, one should NEVER move their initial settler so they can't settle on their first turn,.. I mean, you lose SO much because of that.

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Beating a dead horse by this point, but I had one game wherein my starting point was within two tiles of a mountain, next to the ocean with numerous hills to its left and wide open space with a river to the right. If I had settled then and there, I would have had access to Machu Pichu, two luxuries and navy access. But, and this is important, there is a hill directly beside my starting spot next to the mountain, with an extra luxury within the third ring.

So to summarize: I can settle where I am, with access to two luxuries, Machu Pichu, Neuschwanstein, and a navy, or I can spend one turn to settle on a hill, next to a mountain, getting me access to three luxuries, an Observatory, Machu Pichu, Neuschawanstein and a navy, with an added +1 production from settling on a hill.

You lose five or so science, three to five gold, two to three food and one culture in moving your initial Settler, multiplied by every turn you spend moving (though with increasing opportunity costs). Simply settling on a hill, however, provides incredible advantages that overpower the losses (You gain your initial Monument/Library/Worker/Granary nearly twice as fast, you do not have to work the hill tile as it will effectively function as a farmed hill tile upon settling, and you have increased city defense, to enumerate the obvious bonuses).

In the above example, the option was made even more obvious by the fact that I had a mountain right next to that hill. A Tall, Observatory-ed capital is well worth a few turns spent looking for that spot. Add in the fact that I had more luxuries had I spent one turn moving, and you can see that the option of moving was a no-brainer.

The early game is important, true. But the early game yields are, truthfully, miniscule , with, however, exponential potential for growth. The option of moving, as is the option of settling where you stand, is always situational, with the right option being based on the situation and condition of the current environment.

Syailendra said:

*lol* this is the prologue of the shaka vs mada thread *lol*

what bothers me, is how the mechanism of sea trade routes is, and how to pillage them.
After you beeline astronomy, rushbuy settlers, rush build ships, an then my enemy can break my game with only 1 ship... Well that is not fun at all

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Well if you are building a navy then you should protect your trade routes. Doesn't seem game breaking to me...

TheKingOfBigOz said:

Actually, one should NEVER move their initial settler so they can't settle on their first turn,.. I mean, you lose SO much because of that.

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A nomadic period would help here so that you could move your settler to a better location.

Hakan-i Cihan said:

I think it should be more like this: Indonesia's capital would get 2 lux resources (1 of the 3 cities). If it is too powerfull then they should get the lux. resources availabla after researching calendar.

But from UA description I understand it as: the first 3 cities with the exception of the capital build on a different continent without cities from Indonesia will get the lux. resources.

But now that I am trying to explain it, how would one give a short description for the case of the capital is 1 of 3 cities?

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I think that they described the UA as the first three cities settled on a different continent from the capital that hasn't been settled already.

Strategy-wise, Indonesia's best bet is to settle their capital, beeline Optics, get two settlers, ship them to another continent, and pump them up with domestic routes for food. After that they can settle on their original continent.

A question that came into my mind. What happens if you as Arabia conquer one of those Indonesian cities with the unique luxury and build a bazaar into it? Do you get 4 copies of the lux resource or just the standard 2? With the mercantile city-states conquered by arabs and a bazaar build, what happens do you get 2 or just 1 of jewelry/porcelain? I never conquer city-states and didn't try it myself...

Porcelain and Jewelery are disapled upon capture (which was fixed in a patch).

Chances are that the cities will lose the resource upon capture, if not, then I bet its' going to give 4 copies of the resource.

That is, if the Bazaar retains it's current use.

TheKingOfBigOz said:

Porcelain and Jewelery are disapled upon capture (which was fixed in a patch).

Chances are that the cities will lose the resource upon capture, if not, then I bet its' going to give 4 copies of the resource.

That is, if the Bazaar retains it's current use.

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Thus in a way the Arabs are buffed by addition of Indonesians if they could conquer their lux. cities. Its not a real buff , a nice weird situation.

Hakan-i Cihan said:

With the mercantile city-states conquered by arabs and a bazaar build, what happens do you get 2 or just 1 of jewelry/porcelain? I never conquer city-states and didn't try it myself...

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Neither. You don't get Jewelry or Porcelain if you conquer a city-state unless you're playing with CivUP and GEM.