Mongolia completely overpowered?

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lschnarch

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If I've got that right from reading in the Civilopedia, the Keshik (replacement for the Knight) has a movement of 5, a ranged attack of 13, can move after firing and gains double experience points.

In addition, the Khan (replacement for the General) heals units in its range +2 healthpoints each turn.

And on top of that the Mongols have a +30% strength against City States and their units.

To me this sound overpowered like hell.

What do you think?
 
Are the Mongols in an add-on?
 
lschnarch said:
If I've got that right from reading in the Civilopedia, the Keshik (replacement for the Knight) has a movement of 5, a ranged attack of 13, can move after firing and gains double experience points.

In addition, the Khan (replacement for the General) heals units in its range +2 healthpoints each turn.

And on top of that the Mongols have a +30% strength against City States and their units.

To me this sound overpowered like hell.

What do you think?
Click to expand...

Not really. The Keshik can be taken down by pikemen still so having some guarding your flanks will keep them out of the way of your main forces and the Khan can get taken down and overwhelming might still has an affect.

And city-states are pushovers already.
 
lschnarch said:
If I've got that right from reading in the Civilopedia, the Keshik (replacement for the Knight) has a movement of 5, a ranged attack of 13, can move after firing and gains double experience points.

In addition, the Khan (replacement for the General) heals units in its range +2 healthpoints each turn.

And on top of that the Mongols have a +30% strength against City States and their units.

To me this sound overpowered like hell.

What do you think?
Click to expand...

Horses are powerful already. If you do the horseman rush, as Mongolia, you won't get keshik that quickly since it replaces knight.

I did a simple game, duel map, warlord or prince difficulty to test quickly. Keshik is nice, but I couldn't take over cities with it. I still had to build a swordsman to take over enemy city. They are quite powerful and fun, but you are a warmonger, you should've been attacking with horseman already, it takes a while to get keshik in comparison and once it's out, ouch for the enemy.
 
Completely overpowered? In a stable, human vs. human competition, they're powerful. Overpowered? Hard to tell. The problem is the two cheesiest features were first for expansions (if we have a civ that benefits from ICS, then we'll have all three). But there are other powerful Civs as well. Plus, a good use of pikemen will stop the Keshik.
 
VladTepes said:
Are the Mongols in an add-on?
Click to expand...

It's in the latest patch, log on steam, it should download & patch. There will be a scenario for Mongolia (haven't tried it yet), and you can also select Mongol from single player mode (never played CiV MP yet but I assume it works there too).
 
pretty powerful on paper, but seems only as overpowered as China is:

the Khan is approximately as good as Chinese GGs
the Keshik seems better than the Chinese double shot crossbows
the +1 horse move and 30% city state attack seems worse than the paper makers

so I'd say on the whole they're about the same.
 
Sonereal said:
Not really. The Keshik can be taken down by pikemen still so having some guarding your flanks will keep them out of the way of your main forces and the Khan can get taken down and overwhelming might still has an affect.

And city-states are pushovers already.
Click to expand...

The point is that you don't have to face the Pikemen, if there isn't a complete line of them surrounding the target.

You line them up out of sight, move in, fire your volleys and if anything is left, you can even move out again.
If wounded, they should be able to outrace any other unit, and by their speed they can even surprise you by going like a knife through rough terrain. Don't forget, they are ranged units and don't have to go into melee range.

Regarding the City States I am more concerned about the Mongols being under AI control. This can easily end any alliance with City States suffering the fate of being somewhere in their vicinity.
 
Don't forget that Khan adds 1 movement to mounted units, so I guess that means Khesik are 6 moves. I we thought Champions cavs were tough. I have not gotten to that point yet.
 
Louis XXIV said:
Completely overpowered? In a stable, human vs. human competition, they're powerful. Overpowered? Hard to tell. The problem is the two cheesiest features were first for expansions (if we have a civ that benefits from ICS, then we'll have all three). But there are other powerful Civs as well. Plus, a good use of pikemen will stop the Keshik.
Click to expand...

Please tell us how you thought out the whole "human vs. human" aspect with the Mongol. :p

Spoiler :
For those who doesn't get this sarcasm, you can't play Mongols in multiplayer.
 
Mongolia V Greece would be cool, cept that Keshik is a knight replacement.
 
lschnarch said:
The point is that you don't have to face the Pikemen, if there isn't a complete line of them surrounding the target.

You line them up out of sight, move in, fire your volleys and if anything is left, you can even move out again.
If wounded, they should be able to outrace any other unit, and by their speed they can even surprise you by going like a knife through rough terrain. Don't forget, they are ranged units and don't have to go into melee range.

Regarding the City States I am more concerned about the Mongols being under AI control. This can easily end any alliance with City States suffering the fate of being somewhere in their vicinity.
Click to expand...

pikeman produced from a city with barrack and an armory can probably get a rough terrain promo and cover promo which should reduce the power of Keshiks greatly. They're poor defensive units since they don't receive defensive bonuses and probably would run into problem against other Knights chasing it back or screening the main force.
 
Gaizokubanou said:
Please tell us how you thought out the whole "human vs. human" aspect with the Mongol. :p

Spoiler :
For those who doesn't get this sarcasm, you can't play Mongols in multiplayer.
Click to expand...

I'm aware of that. But singleplayer is useless to figure this out. Humans with a horserush can beat the AI anyway. The AI isn't good enough with horses that a human couldn't defend against them. In the end, Mongolia doesn't add anything to the game except speed up victory slightly for those who want to horse rush (actually, not really, since you have to wait for Chivalry instead of Horseback Riding).

Human players can choose the degree of cheese they want to use against the AI. Only multiplayer can demonstrate if the new Civ is clearly disproportionate in power to older Civs. I realize players can't play with the Mongols in multiplayer at this point. I was addressing a hypothetical multiplayer matchup (with the added hope that developers and beta testers can play them against each other and they tested this out). Simple as that.
 
Sonereal said:
pikeman produced from a city with barrack and an armory can probably get a rough terrain promo and cover promo which should reduce the power of Keshiks greatly. They're poor defensive units since they don't receive defensive bonuses and probably would run into problem against other Knights chasing it back or screening the main force.
Click to expand...

All good and fine, but these units don't survive the initial attack. And even if they do, they will be redlined.
Due to the high speed of the fully developed Mongols with a Khan in the background, it is sufficient if only one path is avalaible to come close.
One unit moves in, fires, moves back. The next unit moves in, fires, moves back. And so on.
Any enemy unit which would be able to do a pursuit will be the prime target and shot to death.
Second turn is mopping up, third turn is bringing in the melee unit to take the city.

It's getting even worse when you have to attack them. You will never see any defense, until shot to death while trying to approach the cities.

On huge maps I foresee quite some problems for you.
 
lschnarch said:
All good and fine, but these units don't survive the initial attack. And even if they do, they will be redlined.
Due to the high speed of the fully developed Mongols with a Khan in the background, it is sufficient if only one path is avalaible to come close.
One unit moves in, fires, moves back. The next unit moves in, fires, moves back. And so on.
Any enemy unit which would be able to do a pursuit will be the prime target and shot to death.
Second turn is mopping up, third turn is bringing in the melee unit to take the city.

It's getting even worse when you have to attack them. You will never see any defense, until shot to death while trying to approach the cities.

On huge maps I foresee quite some problems for you.
Click to expand...

Not really. I would never let myself get into that situation. ;)
 
From what I read, MP isn't possible with Mongolian so we don't have to worry about that.

I think it's hard to counter the Keshik because of the extra movement + range fire power.

For those of you who are proposing pikes can deal with Keshik easily, I beg to differ. I think pikes can deal with keshik IF there are a lot of forests + jungles, etc. to obscure line of fire. In open flat ground, keshik will fire, retreat, you won't be able to catch them, you'll die. Your only chance is hide in a patch of forest/jungle/etc, hoping the keshik will get next to you in order to shoot arrows at you (since they cannot fire at you from 2 tiles away due to all the trees).

Remember, pikes have how many movements? You can't expect a pike to go through rough terrain and then another tile unless there are movement bonuses (such as road, scout's ignore terrain, etc.) in order to take cover behind trees and still manage to move 2 tiles and attack keshik.

If I am facing a Mongolian opponent, I'll have to attack early and quick to slow him/her down so they can't get keshik easily.
 
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