Locked out of Steam/Civ V because of PayPal security

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Well, you're either part of the solution or part of the problem, and saying "that's the way it is" and moving on is NOT being a part of the solution.

Oh, and you might want to check out the GNU licence. Not everyone is as draconian as the game industry in their terms.

Voluntarily becoming party to agreements you (evidently) think are totally wrong is also not being part of the solution. Also, saying that anyone that disagrees with you is 'part of the problem' is very subjective. I don't agree to things and then gripe that I got screwed. I look at them beforehand, and if I get screwed, then it's A) my fault for not checking into it sufficiently or B) the company is not following the terms of the agreement I agreed to. In this case, it seems that Steam is following their own agreement, so I don't see the issue. As has been covered, the money issue got straightened out by PayPal, so Steam released the hold on things.

Let's face it, getting access to Civ 5 is not a 'right'. Firaxis/2K picked Steam as the delivery platform, and if you want access to their product, that's how you get it. If you think their agreement is wrong, then I guess you don't get access to Civ 5. And yes, that's just the way it is. There's no compelling need for you to have an alternative way to access Civilization 5 other than the way the publisher offers.

The GNU licence is a great thing in an ideal world where no one needs profits of any kind. But it's not set up for *selling* software at all. So, it's really not very relevant here, imo.
 
Well, you're either part of the solution or part of the problem, and saying "that's the way it is" and moving on is NOT being a part of the solution.

Oh, and you might want to check out the GNU licence. Not everyone is as draconian as the game industry in their terms.
I don't really subscribe to the "part of the solution, or part of the problem" arguments because I don't view everything as a boolean value. If I purchase a game, and find that I dislike it, I consider it X amount of dollars invested in the knowledge that I dislike a bit of software. In the case of a computer game, I don't expect to ever see any part of that money again. If I dislike a license, I just don't use that software. Generally, the terms of a EULA are written in a "common sense" format- and if you are trying to use the software in a manner other than it was intended, you should probably review the contract you signed.

The majority of the time, when someone is getting in trouble from a EULA, they make it out to sound like they were the victim. If you stop everything, and take a step back, they were clearly in the wrong. Even if what they were doing was technically legal, it's quite often still morally wrong, or it breaks the spirit of the rule.

In the military, this kind of action is punishable under Uniform Code of Military Justice, Article 134 - General Article; however, in the civilian sector, this kind of behavior is not only acceptable- but even promoted by the peers of the so-called "victim." In many ways, Civilian law is broken beyond all hope of repair; but nobody complains about all of the loopholes that a consumer can punch in a contract. It's only when the company tries to compensate for them, and actually try to make a profit and pay their employees.

There is a story on the internet, very similar to the OP's predicament, regarding Steam. There is a key difference, however, and is the reason that the OP got treated the way he did. Someone made a purchase through Steam. After downloading the game, the purchaser discovered that his computer did not meet the requirements for that game, and tried to get a refund. Steam refused, and the purchaser reported the purchase as fraudulent to PayPal, who halted the transaction. Steam responded by freezing his account. This person then posted his story on the internet to slander Valve.

Now, this all sounds legitimate, right? He made a purchase, it didn't work, and he should be able to return it- right? Wrong. Steam warns you that all purchases are final, and that there will be no refunds. Why? I'll get to that in a minute. The point is, the consumer made a purchase, agreed to forfeit the ability to seek a refund, then tried to get a refund. When Valve held him to his end of the deal, he then tried to circumvent the system by reporting the transaction as fraudulent-- he committed a crime to get his money back. This is no different than reaching into a cash-register and walking away with that money. Steam responded by freezing his account-- as they said they would, in the EULA.

The reason you can't return games to Steam is because all it takes to turn a "steam" game into a "real" game is to swap the game executable. Your friend buys a (fictional) version of Civ5 that doesn't require Steam to play. You purchase Civ5 on Steam, swap out the executables to make it run without Steam, and "return" the game for a full refund. While EU customers can seek a refund from game-vendors, anyways, US law aggressively protects vendors from consumer fraud; because a consumer can take a game home, copy the CD, and then claim that the game didn't work and get a full refund.

For the average user, who is using software as it was intended to be used, EULA's generally don't interfere with your life. It isn't until you start doing things with software that you wouldn't do in front of the vendor that issues begin to arise. I have never had an issue with following a EULA thus far. As far as I'm concerned, the "problem" isn't the law that protects a company's intellectual property- it's the fact that consumers are constantly looking for ways to "stick it to the man." So long as that trend continues, laws will become more verbose and less forgiving.

All you have to do is look at the welfare system to see how out-of-control the average person's sense of entitlement has become. YOU may not be a lazy, thieving pirate; and if you aren't, good for you. Then YOU aren't the reason the law is the way it is. But there will always be someone out there not only willing, but actively seeking, ways to cheat the system. THESE are the people that cause EULA's and copyright laws to be written the way they are.

However, I'm familiar with the GNU license. However, the vast majority of commercial entities do not sell their products under the GNU license. If you are trying to make a profit, you won't give your software away. If you have employees, you are probably trying to make a profit.

EDIT:
Voluntarily becoming party to agreements you (evidently) think are totally wrong is also not being part of the solution. Also, saying that anyone that disagrees with you is 'part of the problem' is very subjective. I don't agree to things and then gripe that I got screwed. I look at them beforehand, and if I get screwed, then it's A) my fault for not checking into it sufficiently or B) the company is not following the terms of the agreement I agreed to. In this case, it seems that Steam is following their own agreement, so I don't see the issue. As has been covered, the money issue got straightened out by PayPal, so Steam released the hold on things.

Let's face it, getting access to Civ 5 is not a 'right'. Firaxis/2K picked Steam as the delivery platform, and if you want access to their product, that's how you get it. If you think their agreement is wrong, then I guess you don't get access to Civ 5. And yes, that's just the way it is. There's no compelling need for you to have an alternative way to access Civilization 5 other than the way the publisher offers.

The GNU licence is a great thing in an ideal world where no one needs profits of any kind. But it's not set up for *selling* software at all. So, it's really not very relevant here, imo.

I got ninja'd, but this pretty well covers what I was trying to say.
 
You can't. 2KGames has essentially subcontracted product verification to Valve. You can't use Firaxis's product without dealing with Valve.

Exactly my position as well.
We were "Enforced" into a singularly different bargain that we consciously had to comply with or refuse by NOT buying the product.
My liberty is worth bazillions more than some corporate freaks trying to create an exclusivity club for such things as a casual game that's been mass-produced and made available to all without distinctions nor Rights of access, previously and under similar market conditions.
I repeat, NOBODY owns that right but me.

Even if there would be an alternative to Steam. The choice wasn't mine to make and it is, in fact -- beyond commonly acceptable Moral rights.
Don't forget that we all agree that the "Corporate" entities have undeniable rights of association but this shouldn't be used *against* even a single consumer.
I'll sue, if i must. From Canada to anywhere on Earth.
I'd win a case such as this under Québec Civil Code in less than a minute without being challenged.
 
Exactly my position as well.
We were "Enforced" into a singularly different bargain that we consciously had to comply with or refuse by NOT buying the product.
My liberty is worth bazillions more than some corporate freaks trying to create an exclusivity club for such things as a casual game that's been mass-produced and made available to all without distinctions nor Rights of access, previously and under similar market conditions.
I repeat, NOBODY owns that right but me.

Even if there would be an alternative to Steam. The choice wasn't mine to make and it is, in fact -- beyond commonly acceptable Moral rights.
Don't forget that we all agree that the "Corporate" entities have undeniable rights of association but this shouldn't be used *against* even a single consumer.
I'll sue, if i must. From Canada to anywhere on Earth.
I'd win a case such as this under Québec Civil Code in less than a minute without being challenged.
What exactly would you expect to win? I think I'm confused- but it sounds like you are proclaiming that you would win a suit against 2K/Firaxis for requiring you to use Steam.

If you are talking about the OP's position, it wouldn't matter. It looks like Valve investigated the issue, and decided the OP didn't do anything wrong- and then opened the account back up. The only difference between taking them to court or not, is that Valve would probably stop investigating the issue, the case would likely be considered no-fault, and you would wind up in the same situation except with less money in your pocket, and a longer time without your games.

Granted, Valve took a while to get things done, but they were still well within their rights. 2K/Firaxis didn't do anything wrong either. Nor did the OP. PayPal was entirely at fault in this situation.
 
Exactly my position as well.
We were "Enforced" into a singularly different bargain that we consciously had to comply with or refuse by NOT buying the product.
My liberty is worth bazillions more than some corporate freaks trying to create an exclusivity club for such things as a casual game that's been mass-produced and made available to all without distinctions nor Rights of access, previously and under similar market conditions.
I repeat, NOBODY owns that right but me.

Even if there would be an alternative to Steam. The choice wasn't mine to make and it is, in fact -- beyond commonly acceptable Moral rights.
Don't forget that we all agree that the "Corporate" entities have undeniable rights of association but this shouldn't be used *against* even a single consumer.
I'll sue, if i must. From Canada to anywhere on Earth.
I'd win a case such as this under Québec Civil Code in less than a minute without being challenged.

What is your post about?
 
Wanna bet?
I spent, i own equivalent value.
So far, I'm the only one who has cited a reference- and in that reference, the court found that a software that is licensed does not fall under the same protections as a software that is owned. You essentially rent or lease a licensed software; you have some legal rights, but other rights can be limited by the actual owner.

Much as if I let you borrow my car for 30 days, under the conditions that if you smoke in it, I can confiscate the car-- if you smoke in the rented car, I can repossess it. However, if you owned the car, and you smoked... there's nothing I can do about it.
 
Senethro,
Smart ass.
Go away, troll.

esemjay, i don't require any reference or supplemental opinions to realize common sense always prevails.

Moderator Action: Watch your language and please use the report post button if you feel someone is trolling. Posting replies like this just further derails discussion.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
Exactly my position as well.
We were "Enforced" into a singularly different bargain that we consciously had to comply with or refuse by NOT buying the product.
My liberty is worth bazillions more than some corporate freaks trying to create an exclusivity club for such things as a casual game that's been mass-produced and made available to all without distinctions nor Rights of access, previously and under similar market conditions.
I repeat, NOBODY owns that right but me.

Actually, if the company wants to *only* sell its product through one outlet, then your choice is to use that outlet or not. The company that makes the product has that right, while you're going around asserting who has rights to what.

You, of course, have the right to refuse to use that outlet, and the company has the right to not sell you the game if you won't buy it that way. Very simple. We're not talking about necessities of life here. We're talking about a game.

Blizzard can tell you that you have to get WoW from their servers for a subscription fee, and they don't restrict the client software use for that reason, because it's useless w/o the subscription anyway, and that rule works in Europe and Canada as well as the US. Can you challenge that in Quebec law and win? I'd love to hear how.

Starcraft 2 has to be connected to the internet at least once a month or it stops working. I haven't seen any legal cases forcing Blizzard to turn that off. There's not a lot of difference in how it works for Steam, and 2K/Firaxis picked Steam as the distribution avenue for Civ 5. I fail to see the difference, really. Civ 5 has to phone home periodically via Steam, SC2 goes through Battle.net, and both of those methods were picked by the company making the game and/or the publisher.
 
The only difference between taking them to court or not, is that Valve would probably stop investigating the issue, the case would likely be considered no-fault, and you would wind up in the same situation except with less money in your pocket, and a longer time without your games.

It's pretty clear that the OP no longer has standing for anything other than damages for the period in time for which he was denied his merchandise. Certainly not worth filing a lawsuit over.

Granted, Valve took a while to get things done, but they were still well within their rights.

Hardly. But since you'd have to find a ton of permanent, wrongful account terminations in order to assemble a class action with meaningful damages, Valve can more or less do as they please in practice.
 
It's pretty clear that the OP no longer has standing for anything other than damages for the period in time for which he was denied his merchandise. Certainly not worth filing a lawsuit over.

Hardly. But since you'd have to find a ton of permanent, wrongful account terminations in order to assemble a class action with meaningful damages, Valve can more or less do as they please in practice.

I agree. It would suck for Steam to have to pay for PayPal's mistake, and enough of these would likely result in Steam not accepting PayPal as a valid payment method-- especially since Steam didn't really do anything wrong. I would much rather see PayPal have to pay any damages, seeing as they were the root cause of the issue. I know it wouldn't play out that way in court, but still.

However, given that the majority of Steam terminations aren't permanent and wrongful, I don't see any lawsuits worth anything being filed. Nobody wants to take Steam to court because they got caught pirating, and few people want to take Steam to court and get $5 back.
 
esemjay, i don't require any reference or supplemental opinions to realize common sense always prevails.
There was a case in California, where a burglar fell through a skylight and impaled his leg on a steak-knife. He won that suit. Common sense does not always prevail. Especially when I provided a case that contradicts your point.
 
Blizzard can tell you that you have to get WoW from their servers for a subscription fee, and they don't restrict the client software use for that reason, because it's useless w/o the subscription anyway, and that rule works in Europe and Canada as well as the US. Can you challenge that in Quebec law and win? I'd love to hear how.

Alright - let's quote the entire Paragraph as a single argument not to add any more confusions.

Blizzard sells WoW to milk people out of server Fees. They have to same right as i HAD when i decided to purchase CiV at Best-Buy as a boxset DVD that clearly stated the activation DRM is handled by Steam. My liberty stops there. Their target for profits is *ME*.

Secondly and in no relation whatsoever to the first paragraph of mine above,

The Civil Code in Québec prevents someone from distributing a faulty product without expressly written guarantees of Refund (From 1_the distributor *or* 2_the producer). How do i return a leased software (AND) the rights to obtain any supplemental DLC from an exclusive source if BOTH do not have any value and cost to me?
Are were dealing with wind?

It's a transfer of Goods & Services under the Law. A compiled Item (binary code) sold.
I pay, i own "Something" - i insist, SOMETHING of value.
It crashes, i suffer a loss.
It's a trap, i'm caught.

It's purposely designed to *NOT* work as intended and limited in expectable "quality for cost", i have a right as a consumer to be given an alternative or a Refund.
At the moment, they can't.
 
Yeah common sense and law have nothing to do with each other. If a law states something, that is how it is.
 
There was a case in California, where a burglar fell through a skylight and impaled his leg on a steak-knife. He won that suit. Common sense does not always prevail. Especially when I provided a case that contradicts your point.

Go ahead, keep contradicting - i'm wasting my time. The rest is stupidly pointless; California, the case... weirdly irrational - indeed. Ever heard the term - drugs & drunk on duty?
 
I agree. It would suck for Steam to have to pay for PayPal's mistake, and enough of these would likely result in Steam not accepting PayPal as a valid payment method-- especially since Steam didn't really do anything wrong.

Denying access to purchased merchandise is "doing something wrong". That's the problem. The customer purchased a license to use software from Firaxis (the bricks-and-mortar purchase, to be precise). Valve trampled on that license (by cutting off access to the bricks-and-mortar content) without grounds. It's that simple.

To be clear: there's a case to be made for your side. That's why this situation would require a judge to sort it out. But I'd like to think that Valve would lose in most hypothetical jurisdictions. The consumer has a simple case. Aggregating enough cases with standing is the hard part here.
 
esemjay, i don't require any reference or supplemental opinions to realize common sense always prevails.

This is America. Common sense is illegal.

All you have to do is look at the welfare system to see how out-of-control the average person's sense of entitlement has become. YOU may not be a lazy, thieving pirate; and if you aren't, good for you. Then YOU aren't the reason the law is the way it is. But there will always be someone out there not only willing, but actively seeking, ways to cheat the system. THESE are the people that cause EULA's and copyright laws to be written the way they are.
Since you're siting welfare, I'll point out that the often-cited welfare person that works on the side and leaches off the system to get money is seen by nobody - it's always "I know someone who knows someone who knows someone who saw that person". Why? Because that person doesn't exist. They were concocted by the right wing to attack welfare. The same is true with consumers. You can't point to any specific consumers that are like that because they similarly don't exist (or are at lease exaggerated). They were invented by companies like Valve to justify DRM.

And yes, the Internet is causing a change. Under the free market system, companies whose business model doesn't work with the change should go die. Unfortunately we have an oligopoly who just gets the courts and congress to change the rules so that they don't die. Combined with our national security policy it's enough to make me want to leave America to a country that actually cares about people other than the rich. My worldview is that companies exist solely to provide a service to society and that any profit is just a bonus. Sadly the US subscribes to the paradigm that companies exist solely to make a profit and that nothing else matters, not even morals.

Oh, and in your example with the fictional steam-free civ5, steam would detect the crack unless you never let it run again.

Yeah common sense and law have nothing to do with each other. If a law states something, that is how it is.
Not even what the law says. Precedence matters more than what the law actually says. Courts will rarely contradict precedence, even if it means contradicting the law.
 
Senethro,
Smart ass.
Go away, troll.

I'm sorry mate, I didn't understand your post. It seems you were really trying to emphasise something important and heartfelt though as you had so many different ways of highlighting a word:
"Enforced" NOT NOBODY "Corporate" *against* single



Denying access to purchased merchandise is "doing something wrong". That's the problem. The customer purchased a license to use software from Firaxis. Valve trampled on that license without grounds. It's that simple.

Why is it without grounds? Payment wasn't received so it's prudent for Steam to lock the account in case it has been hijacked in order to prevent more fraud being potentially committed on it. Last thing Steam wants is more zombie accounts sending out phishing messages to their users.
 
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