Best alternative to Civ: Fallen Enchantress or Endless Space?

RTS - Dawn of War 2 (or any stand alone expansion of it)

I haven't been able to go back to DoW II since discovering Company of Heroes, since it's basically the same game engine but oversimplifies so many elements - the maps are less complex, with fewer buildings to occupy and less destructible terrain; the factions are too similar to one another and the hero units less interesting and tactically flexible than the company command system; you can't commandeer field artillery or pick up weapons lost by enemy units; there's no vehicle damage system; the ammunition resource is missing; and above all there is no supply system.

I currently have what I consider the best representatives of all game genres I'm interested in on my computer (age being no barrier; I played most when they first came out):

4x TBS: Master of Orion, Master of Orion 2, Civilization IV, Civilization V, Alpha Centauri, Colonization (original version)
Traditional RTS: Cossacks, Starcraft, Starcraft II
Modern tactical RTS: Company of Heroes
Space RTS: Distant Worlds, Sins of a Solar Empire
RPG: Bard's Tale (original trilogy), Baldur's Gate
Wargames: Total War series (all entries except Shogun 1 and Medieval 1)
X-COM (a genre all to itself): UFO Enemy Unknown, XCOM Enemy Unknown

Galciv2 gameplay was one of the most interesting game i have ever played, but like all Stardock games it is completely devoid of lore which kills the immersion factor.

This is very true. Take Sins, for instance - with the very cursory background it has, it made no sense (pre-Rebellion) for you to have multiple Advent factions fighting each other. However, in a game with 3 factions but up to 10 players, this was a routine setup.

I never played GalCiv II, but did download it recently as it was on sale on Steam. I did recently revisit MOO2 (the first game hasn't lasted that well, but MOO2 is still very playable), available through Good Old Games, and from all reviews I've read, Master of Orion 2 is still hailed as the standard against which all space 4x games (4x being a term coined to describe the original Master of Orion) are judged, and which none have yet matched.

Can I ask you something: How is the combat in ES any more simple than in the Civ games? I ask because it drives me crazy when people say that the combat in space 4x TBS games is too simple, but no one ever complains that the combat in Civ is too simple. In both games, you have units with a certain strength, fighting based on basically a die roll.

In Civ, you have multiple units of multiple types supporting one another, and each fights individually. You have terrain features to consider. In Civ V you have flanking bonuses and ranged attacks (in Civ IV you had bombardment). Different unit types are better against specific enemy types, and the combinations of different units the enemy brings to the battle are important.

In Endless Space a fleet engagement is just one die roll - everything in the system fights together. And the configuration of your ships doesn't much matter. Only weapon type (beam, missile etc.) and number of ships makes any significant difference to outcomes, and then often only if certain tactics cards are in play.

So, comparing ES to Civ, how is the combat more simple? It seems to me that with the addition of the combat strategic choices (cards) you can make in the beginning of the battle, that ES has the more complex system.

The card system is a key flaw. It is very easy to predict (and the AI does not seem to favour technologies that give it extra card options, so it's always selecting from its few basic cards), and is all-or-nothing - either you choose the card that nullifies the opponent's attack, and they lose (or vice versa), or you play cards that have no effect on whatever cards the opponent's playing, and so the cards may as well not exist.

P.S. When I say ES combat is "simple and boring" I am mostly thinking of MoO, which near the end game got a little tedious, but the process of designing ships for literally 100s of potential roles(whether or not they were viable) and configurations and then testing them in space combat or planet subjugation blows ES out of the water.

I always found that at higher tech levels, several hundred Alkari missile frigates could destroy practically everything, but it was still hugely fun to do...
 
Fallen Enchantress looks good. Might get it.
 
Haven't tried Fallen Enchantress, but based on admittedly cursory experience I'd steer clear of Endless Space. It's generic, low-difficulty, with abysmal AI, overly simplified resource management, a poor Facebook-style 'rock-paper-scissors' card game to determine combat results which makes the AI very predictable and easy to beat in combat, and tech progression so rapid that it hardly seems to make any difference which order you follow the initially complex-looking tech tree. I keep meaning to give it more of a fair shot to see if it gets better, but merely opening the program reminds me just how boring the experience was.

I'm sorry, but this is crap.. i highly recommend trying ES instead of listening to garbage like this (it's free to try this weekend). The AI is decent and will only get better, it's certainly fun to play against. The game is not overly simple, it has a fantastic planet and resource management system, and one of the best UI's I've ever seen. The combat is similar to galciv2 (which I absolutely love) you create fleets and watch the battle unfold on a combat viewer. As the battle begins, you can make some strategic choices (called 'cards' but I refuse to call them that), in my mind this is like the president or emperor giving his generals orders. The battles are a blast to watch. It's NOT a game centered around tactical combat (like Moo2) and isn't supposed to be. You can customize your ships in a myriad of ways (not cosmetically unfortunately)

There's tons of different things you discover as you explore systems, resources, anomalys, wonders of ancient civilizations, random events, etc...most things that I would put in a 4X game, they've thought of.

Amplitude Studios is a tiny indie developer, and it's amazing what they've achieved. We really have to support little developers like this, they're aren't many people making 4x games, especially people that love the games themselves, as AS does. ES is clearly a labor of love. They're very responsive to customer and forum suggestions and are just super good people.

In Civ, you have multiple units of multiple types supporting one another, and each fights individually. You have terrain features to consider. In Civ V you have flanking bonuses and ranged attacks (in Civ IV you had bombardment). Different unit types are better against specific enemy types, and the combinations of different units the enemy brings to the battle are important.

This is only true in Civ V, previously in Civ combat amounted to creating a stack of units, and attacking another stack of units, the bigger stack wins.
 
I'm sorry, but this is crap.. i highly recommend trying ES instead of listening to garbage like this (it's free to try this weekend). The AI is decent and will only get better, it's certainly fun to play against.

Unless it's been patched, it played the same way consistently. And I've admitted to having not played much (Steam tells me I've played 4 hours) - however it doesn't look as though my impressions are far off those of many people who've played it for longer.

The game is not overly simple, it has a fantastic planet and resource management system, and one of the best UI's I've ever seen.

I'm not sure what I'm seeing that's fantastic. In Endless Space, a star system is one colony- no multiple colonies in a multiplanet system as in most games of this type. The four resources are simply additive, and all are used in the same way. Food works no differently from credits (dust?), works no differently from production, works no differently from research. It's a very static system with neither dynamism nor the flexibility to add interesting effects that affect your income or expenses in different ways (hence the various available bonuses appearing so generic). It's all what we've seen before in countless other games, only - indeed - oversimplified compared with many.

Resources are automatically generated in the maximum quantity the system allows if you have a planet that produces them, as with minerals or crystal in Sins of a Solar Empire; there is no 'worker' system as in Civ or Master of Orion where you trade off production, say, against food or research depending on how you assign workers. All you can do to influence it is to build different resource-modifying structures, which just add a permanent boost to the resource output of the system. There's no system of supply lines which can result in your planets getting cut off if they no longer have an uninterrupted path to 'supplier' systems (in MOO, if your spacelane was cut between a food-producing and food-demanding system, freighters couldn't continue to transport the surplus, resulting in starvation even when you had excess food in your empire). There's nothing nuanced or complex here.

It's NOT a game centered around tactical combat (like Moo2) and isn't supposed to be.

Which would be fine if it centred on anything else, or offered anything new that MOO 2 didn't. If it's just going to be based on a similar engine but removing elements, what's the point? Yet there is no deep strategy here, no colony micromanagement to focus on; you don't have any of the decision-making that went into MOO2 (which of the mutually exclusive techs to research, when you can research everything, and quickly, say).

Your systems and planets come pre-specialised given the available resources, so it's just a matter of building the standard structures for that world type.

Diplomacy appears to be an optional extra, and again diplomatic relations tend to be decided for you by the game's pre-built good/evil alignment system, in a much less malleable way than MOO's racial prejudices.

As I mentioned, this feels a lot like a turn-based Sins of a Solar Empire (which also preselects your planet specialisations for you), and by its nature as an RTS reduces strategic complexity to allow real-time play (although the logistical/tactical slot system in that game prompts more complex decision-making than I've noticed in Endless Space).

You can customize your ships in a myriad of ways (not cosmetically unfortunately)

The problem is, the customisation isn't very relevant. You have a weapon that adds +X to your attack, and the only relevant stat that varies is type (laser, missile...). Similarly you can add to your defence, but since ships do nothing but attack, and combat is based around exactly two stats (no effects of ship combat speed or the like, no weapon facings, no heavy or point defence weapon variants), for practical intents and purposes you're just levelling up the same basic designs.

There's tons of different things you discover as you explore systems, resources, anomalys, wonders of ancient civilizations, random events, etc...most things that I would put in a 4X game, they've thought of.

As above, these are all the things other people have also thought to put in 4x games, going right back to Master of Orion 2. It's the stuff that people put into those other games that isn't here that's frustrating. Even if this were just a modern reskin of Master of Orion 2 it would have elements that are missing from this game; food that's actually needed to support and grow population (and freighters to transport it), actually needing money to support your fleet, something resembling a meaningful economy (granted not brilliantly handled in any 4x game other than Distant Worlds), tactical combat with customisation options that are meaningful, or at least characterful, diplomacy that plays a meaningful role in the game (in Endless Space it appears to exist merely to give you points towards a diplomatic victory, not to actually add diplomacy as a gameplay element more generally), there's no fuel system that limits where you can explore... What does Endless Space add? All I can really see is the explore moon mechanic, which is a nice touch but a direct lift from Sins of a Solar Empire's exploration mechanic, and one which loses its lustre when you realise how generic all the finds are.

Worse still, MOO even scores on the graphics front - not in technical quality, but you've pointed out yourself the shortage of cosmetic spaceship options (present in MOO), you see planets in an orbital diagram in MOO 2, which is much more immersive than the solar system wallpaper of Endless Space, and you have a Civ-like visualisation of each planet's colony, all of which is more characterful than anything Endless Space has to offer.

Amplitude Studios is a tiny indie developer, and it's amazing what they've achieved. We really have to support little developers like this, they're aren't many people making 4x games, especially people that love the games themselves, as AS does. ES is clearly a labor of love. They're very responsive to customer and forum suggestions and are just super good people.

If you want to support little-known studios putting out 4x games, play Distant Worlds.

This is only true in Civ V, previously in Civ combat amounted to creating a stack of units, and attacking another stack of units, the bigger stack wins.

The older games had terrain effects, and units that attacked one by one - they certainly weren't complex decision-making exercises, but they offered somewhat more in that regard than Endless Space appears to.
 
Unless it's been patched, it played the same way consistently. And I've admitted to having not played much (Steam tells me I've played 4 hours) - however it doesn't look as though my impressions are far off those of many people who've played it for longer.



I'm not sure what I'm seeing that's fantastic. In Endless Space, a star system is one colony- no multiple colonies in a multiplanet system as in most games of this type. The four resources are simply additive, and all are used in the same way. Food works no differently from credits (dust?), works no differently from production, works no differently from research. It's a very static system with neither dynamism nor the flexibility to add interesting effects that affect your income or expenses in different ways (hence the various available bonuses appearing so generic). It's all what we've seen before in countless other games, only - indeed - oversimplified compared with many.

Resources are automatically generated in the maximum quantity the system allows if you have a planet that produces them, as with minerals or crystal in Sins of a Solar Empire; there is no 'worker' system as in Civ or Master of Orion where you trade off production, say, against food or research depending on how you assign workers. All you can do to influence it is to build different resource-modifying structures, which just add a permanent boost to the resource output of the system. There's no system of supply lines which can result in your planets getting cut off if they no longer have an uninterrupted path to 'supplier' systems (in MOO, if your spacelane was cut between a food-producing and food-demanding system, freighters couldn't continue to transport the surplus, resulting in starvation even when you had excess food in your empire). There's nothing nuanced or complex here.



Which would be fine if it centred on anything else, or offered anything new that MOO 2 didn't. If it's just going to be based on a similar engine but removing elements, what's the point? Yet there is no deep strategy here, no colony micromanagement to focus on; you don't have any of the decision-making that went into MOO2 (which of the mutually exclusive techs to research, when you can research everything, and quickly, say).

Your systems and planets come pre-specialised given the available resources, so it's just a matter of building the standard structures for that world type.

Diplomacy appears to be an optional extra, and again diplomatic relations tend to be decided for you by the game's pre-built good/evil alignment system, in a much less malleable way than MOO's racial prejudices.

As I mentioned, this feels a lot like a turn-based Sins of a Solar Empire (which also preselects your planet specialisations for you), and by its nature as an RTS reduces strategic complexity to allow real-time play (although the logistical/tactical slot system in that game prompts more complex decision-making than I've noticed in Endless Space).



The problem is, the customisation isn't very relevant. You have a weapon that adds +X to your attack, and the only relevant stat that varies is type (laser, missile...). Similarly you can add to your defence, but since ships do nothing but attack, and combat is based around exactly two stats (no effects of ship combat speed or the like, no weapon facings, no heavy or point defence weapon variants), for practical intents and purposes you're just levelling up the same basic designs.



As above, these are all the things other people have also thought to put in 4x games, going right back to Master of Orion 2. It's the stuff that people put into those other games that isn't here that's frustrating. Even if this were just a modern reskin of Master of Orion 2 it would have elements that are missing from this game; food that's actually needed to support and grow population (and freighters to transport it), actually needing money to support your fleet, something resembling a meaningful economy (granted not brilliantly handled in any 4x game other than Distant Worlds), tactical combat with customisation options that are meaningful, or at least characterful, diplomacy that plays a meaningful role in the game (in Endless Space it appears to exist merely to give you points towards a diplomatic victory, not to actually add diplomacy as a gameplay element more generally), there's no fuel system that limits where you can explore... What does Endless Space add? All I can really see is the explore moon mechanic, which is a nice touch but a direct lift from Sins of a Solar Empire's exploration mechanic, and one which loses its lustre when you realise how generic all the finds are.

Worse still, MOO even scores on the graphics front - not in technical quality, but you've pointed out yourself the shortage of cosmetic spaceship options (present in MOO), you see planets in an orbital diagram in MOO 2, which is much more immersive than the solar system wallpaper of Endless Space, and you have a Civ-like visualisation of each planet's colony, all of which is more characterful than anything Endless Space has to offer.



If you want to support little-known studios putting out 4x games, play Distant Worlds.



The older games had terrain effects, and units that attacked one by one - they certainly weren't complex decision-making exercises, but they offered somewhat more in that regard than Endless Space appears to.

Most of your points are accurate, there's just something I want to point out:

In Endless Space, a star system is one colony- no multiple colonies in a multiplanet system as in most games of this type.

This is incorrect, inside each star system are multiple planets that each need to be colonized if you want to make use of them. They're usually all very different as well, with random bonuses and anomalies. You describe the resource system accurately, but it's a system that works for me, and that I find fun. I hesitate to even compare ES to MoO2, it's closer to Galciv2 (which I love).

I'll check out DW, is it a TBS or an RTS?
 
This is incorrect, inside each star system are multiple planets that each need to be colonized if you want to make use of them.

They each need to be colonised, but once colonised they aren't managed separately. I suppose they're the closest equivalent the game has to a population system, in that each planet is essentially an extra point of population adding to the system's output.

I'll check out DW, is it a TBS or an RTS?

It's in real-time, but it's not what would normally be called an RTS, and it's less daunting than it first appears since most game events take place slowly - it's not a game where pinpoint timing is critical. Combat is also slow-paced - if your exploration ship comes across a space monster or pirates it will usually have time to get away, and small garrison fleets can deal with standard pirate harassment without any need to intervene once they're in place. Most things - other than combat - that require rapid reactions are automated through the game's 'private sector' (over which, being the government as you are, you have no direct control).
 
They each need to be colonised, but once colonised they aren't managed separately. I suppose they're the closest equivalent the game has to a population system, in that each planet is essentially an extra point of population adding to the system's output.

Each planet in a system has it's own population count, with a maximum that can be sustained. Four or so pop slots for poor planets, but ten, twelve or more for high quality planets.
 
Unless it's been patched, it played the same way consistently. And I've admitted to having not played much (Steam tells me I've played 4 hours) - however it doesn't look as though my impressions are far off those of many people who've played it for longer.

Yes, it has been patched. The Automatons patch made the AI quite a bit better. The very recent Echoes of the Endless patch improved it even more. It's still not fantastic, but then, what 4X AI is? :p

I'm not sure what I'm seeing that's fantastic. In Endless Space, a star system is one colony- no multiple colonies in a multiplanet system as in most games of this type. The four resources are simply additive, and all are used in the same way. Food works no differently from credits (dust?), works no differently from production, works no differently from research. It's a very static system with neither dynamism nor the flexibility to add interesting effects that affect your income or expenses in different ways (hence the various available bonuses appearing so generic). It's all what we've seen before in countless other games, only - indeed - oversimplified compared with many.

I don't understand this point. How are food, production, gold, and beakers in Civ V different? How are they more complex than in ES?

Resources are automatically generated in the maximum quantity the system allows if you have a planet that produces them, as with minerals or crystal in Sins of a Solar Empire; there is no 'worker' system as in Civ or Master of Orion where you trade off production, say, against food or research depending on how you assign workers. All you can do to influence it is to build different resource-modifying structures, which just add a permanent boost to the resource output of the system. There's no system of supply lines which can result in your planets getting cut off if they no longer have an uninterrupted path to 'supplier' systems (in MOO, if your spacelane was cut between a food-producing and food-demanding system, freighters couldn't continue to transport the surplus, resulting in starvation even when you had excess food in your empire). There's nothing nuanced or complex here.

This is incorrect. You can determine what the workers on each planet within a system produce by using the different planet improvements. You could assign every planet to food, or half to food and half to science, or some other combination. It's not as fine-grained as Civ V where you can assign every population individually, but that's a good thing. The empires in ES are larger than a typical Civ V empire and assigning every population point would be incredibly tedious. I think it's fine as is.

Also, there most certainly is a blockade system that cuts off resources to the blockaded planet. There is, unfortunately, no transport of food from one system to another. But systems to provide luxury and strategic resources to others and those can be cut off. Some luxuries affect food generation or happiness, so you can still get into trouble, especially early in the game. Losing strategic resources cripples your ability to produce more ships.

Of course, Civ V doesn't have anything like this, either. One city in Civ V is entirely independent of every other city in Civ V. :p

Yet there is no deep strategy here, no colony micromanagement to focus on; you don't have any of the decision-making that went into MOO2 (which of the mutually exclusive techs to research, when you can research everything, and quickly, say).

Like in Civ V? Or any other Civ game ever? Or Fallen Enchantress? How many 4X games really make you choose one tech or another? Anyway, the order that you research techs definitely makes a difference in ES and not every game requires the same research order. It's much like Civ V in this regard.

Your systems and planets come pre-specialised given the available resources, so it's just a matter of building the standard structures for that world type.

Definitely not. Also, you can change the planet types later in the game to specialize each system, if you want to.

Diplomacy appears to be an optional extra, and again diplomatic relations tend to be decided for you by the game's pre-built good/evil alignment system, in a much less malleable way than MOO's racial prejudices.

I'm not sure if the Good/Neutral/Evil thing matters. It might just be lore. I've had games where the "Evil" empires were the most peaceful and games where they were the most violent, and the same is true for others. I think they have other modifiers to fit the lore (e.g. aggression, expansion, etc.) like the leaders in Civ V. I can't confirm this, but it seems to be true. The Hissho are usually more aggressive than the Sophons, but not always.

The problem is, the customisation isn't very relevant. You have a weapon that adds +X to your attack, and the only relevant stat that varies is type (laser, missile...). Similarly you can add to your defence, but since ships do nothing but attack, and combat is based around exactly two stats (no effects of ship combat speed or the like, no weapon facings, no heavy or point defence weapon variants), for practical intents and purposes you're just levelling up the same basic designs.

I do agree with this part. Ship design is boring. I make the same handful of ships in every game and they always work flawlessly. I really hope that the developers improve this area of the game in a future patch.

That said, a Warrior is a Swordsman is a Longswordsman is a Musketman is a Rifleman is an Infantry... I mean, you get a few more unit types in Civ V than you do in ES, but they're functionally the same. Civ V gets more interesting near the end when you've got planes and submarines, but most of the game focuses on archers, warriors, spears, and if you're lucky, horses. Spears are good against horses, archers are weak to warriors and spears, horses are great vs. everything but cities, etc. It's the same thing, but with less customization.

I'm not trying to claim that Endless Space is the best 4X game ever or even that it's revolutionary. It isn't. But it's definitely a decent game, it's constantly getting better with free patches, and it's only $15 right now. I feel that ES is worth $15 and I recommend it to anyone looking for a 4X game to fill a few weeks of your time. It's not going to give you the mileage that Civ V will, but it's also 1/4th the price.

Eh.
 
To answer the original question: BOTH!

Fallen Enchantress is a decent successor to Elemental and feels like a HEROES x CIV crossover. Still a rough gem, but I had a lot of fun with the games I played so far.

Endless Space is also a great space 4X game. Considering that the dev team is small, the game has fantastic aesthetics. Honestly, I am usually not the person that wants shiny graphics, but the planets look AWESOME in the closeup system view. The game is lacking a bit in diversity (the different racial benefits become pointless past the midgame, tech order is always rather similiar) and can become repetetive, but overall I am really, really happy I bought this one when it was on steam sale! Plus: the "games-2-gether" policy allows the community to influence the new stuff added, which is a neat idea.

tl,dr: Get both.
If that isn't an option pick FE if you like fantasy, ES if you like sci-fi.
 
I picked up Endless Space for $15 and I'm very happy with it.

The battle-cards system felt awkward at first, but once I figured out how combat worked, it made more sense and, contrary to many complaints I hear, it's actually quite strategic.

The only annoying thing is not being able to fast-forward the battles. You can auto-resolve them, but that's generally suboptimal if you don't vastly overpower the target, and you can only do that before the battle starts.

I haven't played Fallen Enchantress.
 
I`ve got galactic Civ 2- Marvellous game. Recommended.

Hated Sins of a Solar Empire, but then I like things turned based on my strategy, not real timer. The Total war games are how Real time and turn based SHOULD be done; real time in actual battles, turn-based on the strategy.

Real time is not for real thinking strategy, but finger twitch players who are too impatient.
 
Started E:FE, the customization in this game is VAST. Holy smokes I always wanted to design my OWN units IN GAME to produce instead of massproducing those presets, could use more polishing though (the village doesn't save material (production) if I change order, that sucks).
 
This is incorrect. You can determine what the workers on each planet within a system produce by using the different planet improvements.

Isn't this what I was saying when I said that the only way to influence production was to build certain structures on the planet? And the output of the planet thus amended is itself fixed from then on.

Of course, Civ V doesn't have anything like this, either. One city in Civ V is entirely independent of every other city in Civ V. :p

This is a general issue with Civ games, but there have always been certain mechanical differences between Civ and space 4x games - comparisons with space-based predecessors are thus more relevant in that regard.

Definitely not. Also, you can change the planet types later in the game to specialize each system, if you want to.

It's possible I didn't get that far into the tech tree - as I say, my game lasted 4 hours, by which point I'd either won or there was no realistic prospect of a rival winning and I got bored (I can't remember which).

I'm not sure if the Good/Neutral/Evil thing matters. It might just be lore. I've had games where the "Evil" empires were the most peaceful and games where they were the most violent, and the same is true for others. I think they have other modifiers to fit the lore (e.g. aggression, expansion, etc.) like the leaders in Civ V. I can't confirm this, but it seems to be true. The Hissho are usually more aggressive than the Sophons, but not always.

I don't mean it makes a difference to aggression, I mean it makes a difference to relations - a good empire is always going to have bad diplomatic relations with an evil one. It's as though every race acts like the Silicoids in MOO, who you have very few options to influence because their default racial prejudice is to be unfriendly with everyone (which means no trade pacts, no tech swaps etc.). Their initial settings dictate who they'll get on with and who they won't.

That said, a Warrior is a Swordsman is a Longswordsman is a Musketman is a Rifleman is an Infantry... I mean, you get a few more unit types in Civ V than you do in ES, but they're functionally the same.

Civ doesn't promise a unit design system, or belong to a legacy of games which are characterised by a unit design system, and you don't have to design units before you can use them. Since it doesn't make a lot of difference in Endless Space, but is nevertheless a required part of gameplay, it just feels like a chore.

I'm not trying to claim that Endless Space is the best 4X game ever or even that it's revolutionary. It isn't. But it's definitely a decent game, it's constantly getting better with free patches, and it's only $15 right now.[/QUOTE]

It was probably to the misfortune of Endless Space that I first learned about it from a review which also mentioned Distant Worlds. So by the time ES was released I'd already seen what DW had to offer. Increasingly, though, older games have been adapted for new machines and are available at bargain basement prices, so there's more and more need for a game to be 'the best', or at least revolutionary, in a way there wasn't when Master of Orion 2 was confined to 3.5" discs. The same Steam sale that halved the price of Endless Space also offered both Galactic Civilizations games together for the princely sum of $6.99.

Anyway, I've reinstalled ES to give it another try; not sure when that will happen since I'm currently engaged in an Otomo campaign in Shogun 2...

Hated Sins of a Solar Empire, but then I like things turned based on my strategy, not real timer. The Total war games are how Real time and turn based SHOULD be done; real time in actual battles, turn-based on the strategy.

Sins is an odd game and I had much the same sense when I first played it. It looked and felt like a game that tried to merge two incompatible genres and came off as a bad example of either - it plays fundamentally like an RTS, but takes much longer to complete and is at a scale where you can only see battles as sets of unattractive yellow, green or whatever ship icons; at the same time it's let down on the grand strategy front by (in the original release) the lack of any meaningful diplomacy (since winning involved killing everyone off anyway), the limited resource and planet types that make exploration a bit samey, and the streamlining necessary to fit a real-time format.

A combination of more experience with it and playing the fuller game (although I'd downloaded 'Trinity', I'd played the original pre-Diplomacy version to get a feel for the basic game engine) has made me reevaluate it - it's actually a pretty good RTS, with more complexity in both base management and combat that it first appears, but it is ultimately a large-scale RTS rather than a 4x game, but you do get the feel you're fighting over actual territory rather than parts of a map which is often missing from RTSes.

Real time is not for real thinking strategy, but finger twitch players who are too impatient.

Time management is a valid element of strategy. Sins appears to break away from the 'it's all about build orders and completing project X by time Y' mode of a traditional competitive RTS like Starcraft, but it's possible I just haven't played it long enough to have identified the best formulae yet.
 
Time management is a valid element of strategy. Sins appears to break away from the 'it's all about build orders and completing project X by time Y' mode of a traditional competitive RTS like Starcraft, but it's possible I just haven't played it long enough to have identified the best formulae yet.

Indeed it is. But you mix tactical thinking timing with strategic thinking timing. In RTS` you aren`t given the time that you would get in real life. For instance, even in a real war with stuff happening a leader would have at the minimum an hour to decide on his next bit of strategy.

In these twitch-fest RTS you barely get 5 minutes before the other side has built everything and has a huge army knocking on your doorstep. Like I said, i don`t mind tactical fast thinking (as in battle) it`s the strategic thinking that needs to be turn based.

Seriously, I tried these real time RTS` and the only way to win is to dump buildings or whatever like crazy, then churn our robots which are massed in one big glop and chaarrrgge! That`s not strategy. It also feels very unrealistic since you don`t get a chance to set out armies in formation for battle like in reality.

I want the time to think on my next strategic move whether it takes me 5 minutes or 20 like the real guys would have! Turn based translates this best of alll.
 
Indeed it is. But you mix tactical thinking timing with strategic thinking timing. In RTS` you aren`t given the time that you would get in real life. For instance, even in a real war with stuff happening a leader would have at the minimum an hour to decide on his next bit of strategy.

In these twitch-fest RTS you barely get 5 minutes before the other side has built everything and has a huge army knocking on your doorstep. Like I said, i don`t mind tactical fast thinking (as in battle) it`s the strategic thinking that needs to be turn based.

Seriously, I tried these real time RTS` and the only way to win is to dump buildings or whatever like crazy, then churn our robots which are massed in one big glop and chaarrrgge! That`s not strategy. It also feels very unrealistic since you don`t get a chance to set out armies in formation for battle like in reality.

I want the time to think on my next strategic move whether it takes me 5 minutes or 20 like the real guys would have! Turn based translates this best of alll.

Sins is definitely slower-paced than most of these kinds of games - and in most, there's a certain threshold you have to break through to start with, after which timing becomes less important until you get to higher competitive levels of play. In Starcraft II, for instance, there's a "sweet spot" at about 7 minutes - once you've cracked having a defence in place by that time, you have more breathing room to plan future moves. Sins is similar; in my first games I got overwhelmed by pirates after their first two or three raids (I understand a recent patch has reduced early pirate difficulty), but now I can get a garrison up that holds them off long enough for me to focus on colony and fleet development. Pirates are on a 10 minute timer, so you have a fair bit of breathing room between attacks, and at least against the AI the enemy players (i.e. not pirates) aren't aggressive until rather later.

Much of it comes down to familiarity - since you're on a timer you need to know what each base option/ship/tech does so that you have an idea what you need when. Once you start getting the hang of that, the games don't place as much pressure on you.

RTSes aren't intended to be realistic battle simulators; the classic style doesn't even have much in the way of military-style tactics. Starcraft, for instance, has very little structure to its maps, little benefit to high ground, no cover rules, no benefits for attacking from the flank or rear (some units do have to turn to attack, but it's very quick). Resource control is important, but territory control per se is less so. You don't fight battles over strategic sites, and while you routinely attack enemy bases to deny them resources, a traditional RTS isn't a game of conquest and you'll rarely set up a base of your own in the captured territory (as this will normally be too close to the enemy's home base to hold).

These games are essentially economy simulators rather than wargames: they're about maximising production, then turning minerals and crystals into units that cause damage to the opponent's economy by destroying equivalent - or ideally greater - resources-worth of that player's units and buildings. Success is measured in resources killed vs. resources lost, and micromanagement revolves around retreating damaged units to keep them alive, not around tactical manoeuvres that can allow a weaker force to overcome a stronger one.
 
Isn't this what I was saying when I said that the only way to influence production was to build certain structures on the planet? And the output of the planet thus amended is itself fixed from then on.

You're wrong, though. You can change the exploitation of a planet at any time. If you suddenly need to focus on production, you can switch all of your planets to production. If you have a budget deficit, you can switch a system over to Dust. Or, you can try to balance everything with one system on food to grow population, one on production to build new improvements, and the others maximizing returns on dust and science. And you aren't locked into these choices. You can switch at any time. You can also move population from one planet to another. Think of it like the governor in Civ V, but slightly less micro. You decide how many population are working on food, industry, dust, and science. Each also generates the others in lesser quantities.

This is a general issue with Civ games, but there have always been certain mechanical differences between Civ and space 4x games - comparisons with space-based predecessors are thus more relevant in that regard.

I make the comparison with Civ games because we're on a Civ forum and everyone here plays Civ. It seems kind of silly to like Civ V and then dislike another 4X game for not including a feature that Civ V also doesn't have.

It's possible I didn't get that far into the tech tree - as I say, my game lasted 4 hours, by which point I'd either won or there was no realistic prospect of a rival winning and I got bored (I can't remember which).

That's kind of like playing on game of Civ V on the default settings (Warlord?), deciding that it's too simple, and then telling everyone not to buy it because it's too easy. If you aren't going to play the game beyond the first four hours, then you really have no platform. Terraforming planets is a major concept in ES. Difficulty scales quite substantially on Serious, Impossible, and Endless.

ES does suffer from a problem that just about all 4X games suffer from, though. By mid-game, you generally know if you've won. Usually. I finally finished a game last night in which I didn't know if a rival would eek out a science victory before I could finish my expansion victory. It was a good ending, though it got a bit grindy.

I don't mean it makes a difference to aggression, I mean it makes a difference to relations - a good empire is always going to have bad diplomatic relations with an evil one. It's as though every race acts like the Silicoids in MOO, who you have very few options to influence because their default racial prejudice is to be unfriendly with everyone (which means no trade pacts, no tech swaps etc.). Their initial settings dictate who they'll get on with and who they won't.

Except for the Cravers, who must always be at war with everyone, that simply isn't true. From my experiences, the leadership personalities aren't too different from those in Civ V. The Hissho might be less likely to form an Alliance than the Sophons, but they'll still do so often enough. Like Monty or Attila! What's wrong with that?

Civ doesn't promise a unit design system, or belong to a legacy of games which are characterised by a unit design system, and you don't have to design units before you can use them. Since it doesn't make a lot of difference in Endless Space, but is nevertheless a required part of gameplay, it just feels like a chore.

1. See my above explanation of comparisons to Civ instead of previous space games. I'll add that ES belongs to no legacy. It's a new game from a new studio and makes no promises to be MoO2 or any other old space 4X game. Comparisons to Civ are at least as relevant as comparisons to previous space games and on this forum, I'd argue that they're more relevant.

2. The ship design does need work. I've written this previously. In the meantime, it takes about five minutes to design all of your ships and there's an auto-upgrade feature if you're too lazy to keep up with new techs.
 
You're wrong, though. You can change the exploitation of a planet at any time. If you suddenly need to focus on production, you can switch all of your planets to production.

You can - if the planet's the right type, otherwise the extra bonus from exploitation is rather meagre.

It seems kind of silly to like Civ V and then dislike another 4X game for not including a feature that Civ V also doesn't have.

Well, not really since alternatives to Endless Space are mainly other space 4X games.

That's kind of like playing on game of Civ V on the default settings (Warlord?), deciding that it's too simple, and then telling everyone not to buy it because it's too easy.

If that had been my primary objection, quite possibly so. Played a longer session today, but still on normal - the AI is still poor and predictable (a given faction always creates the same ship designs, even if there are several copies of that faction in the game, they have set cards to play based on whether their ships are damaged or not, and seem fond of the 40% bonus to deflection for fleets with no deflectors), seems to make very little effort to expand until quite late, still neglects weapon and hull techs, and there appears to be no AI diplomacy of any kind. I haven't either seen notifications of AI alliances or treaties, or seen AIs exhibit any kind of coordinated response to a threat. Civ V on default settings (Prince is the nominally 'normal' difficulty level) offers more of a challenge to someone who's never played it before, and certainly makes its AI opponents feel like interactive players who at least acknowledge one another's existence. This felt more - again - like Sins of a Solar Empire, with several different colours of AI pirates, rather than rival players.

I admit I did enjoy the game more with this playthrough (setting a larger galaxy as well as adding the maximum number of factions), although they should have enough factions so there's no duplication of races in a given game (I chose random and rolled the Cravers - the other races were 3 Automaton empires, 2 Horatio empires and 2 Hissho empires).

ES does suffer from a problem that just about all 4X games suffer from, though. By mid-game, you generally know if you've won. Usually. I finally finished a game last night in which I didn't know if a rival would eek out a science victory before I could finish my expansion victory. It was a good ending, though it got a bit grindy.

I found the whole lot rather grindy - ships, colonise, rinse, repeat. I do appear to have chosen a tech progression with relatively few buildable improvements, but those that exist produce quickly, are no-brainers, and have trivial maintenance costs. I started the game specialising my systems but soon lapsed since I found it wasn't very relevant - specialising one productive system for dust covered enough to fund the game's largest fleet plus all the infrastructure I wanted, another system was my ship factory, and there seemed little reason not to grind out science everywhere else. It would have been nice to feel there were reasons not to do the obvious (tundra planet? Okay, more science once at max pop), but there never seemed to be.

1. See my above explanation of comparisons to Civ instead of previous space games. I'll add that ES belongs to no legacy. It's a new game from a new studio and makes no promises to be MoO2 or any other old space 4X game. Comparisons to Civ are at least as relevant as comparisons to previous space games and on this forum, I'd argue that they're more relevant.

There's no point comparing it with Civ, less on this forum than elsewhere for the simple reason that people here are mostly already playing Civ. There's no sense recommending a game to someone for being as similar as possible to a game they already possess and play. People who play Civ games are in the market for 4x titles, but those looking for other games are looking for 4x titles that aren't Civ.

While I'll admit to enjoying the game on this second playthrough, I still found myself wondering why I would play it more generally over Sins of a Solar Empire (despite its lack of tactical combat, ES feels very much about building up as big a fleet as possible and going to bash the other guy, it doesn't really feel strategic or on the scale of an empire-builder. Even the flavour descriptions for such things as Endless artefacts describes them as housing technologies to improve your fleet), let alone the classic space 4x titles.
 
ES definitely needs flavor text added, and more immersive diplomacy. It's still much more of an empire building game than sins though. Sins is really just a war game, where ES has many paths to victory.
 
An experienced strategy gamer should be giving a game 1 try on the default difficulty if they're totally unfamiliar with the mechanics. If you're playing civ at 7 or 8 you should be at or near the highest difficulty in ES very quickly. So much of 4X strategy is universal. I played one game of civ 5 at level 6 before moving up and I only played a few of 4 at Emperor before moving up there too. Once you see all the elements of the equation it shouldn't take long to compare them to your previous experience and translate that experience into the new game. I don't see that as a defect in the design of any particular game.

What more, or as a result, the gameplay is pretty universal too. I mean, a production center, a money center if needed, then science everywhere else. Hold on for a while then grind out the win of your choice based on your superior science. How many strategy games does that describe? If it was optimal to specialize counter to the terrain what would be the meaning of the terrain? You generally do it because circumstance is forcing you to.

One kind of interesting thing to try in ES that may not be immediately obvious is that each of the 3 non-military tech branches contains a unique but viable route to building your economy. The left tree uses trade routes (which generate a crazy amount of science and gold, but you have to be at peace) along with cheaper rush buying. The bottom one uses terraforming to make all your planets good types along with a few genetic engineering flavored "buildings" that generically increase productivity. The right tree has factories and research labs. They've also each got their own techs for increasing the amount of firepower in your fleets. You'll end up going down all of them but you can choose to be farther ahead in one than the others depending on what race you are and what your territory looks like.

You might be better off just autoing all your battles in ES. Your fleets will do a bit worse on average, but that can be an element of the difficulty setting. And it's not that they'll do worse than the enemy fleets, they just won't be getting an advantage because of a particularly weak area of the game design. I too have noticed that the AI seems to be pretty much picking cards at random, ending up with one that doesn't get countered but has no effect anyway fairly often.

ES actually does have enough races to fill up a map. They opted not to make them exclusive in a game though. I can see good reasons for or against that choice.
 
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