Holy Roman Empire + Reformed Germany

Holy Roman Empire
Charlemagne
Patchwork Empire: During war, take direct control of allied city state’s units. During peace, allied city states send tribute (gpt).
Landsknecht (replaces Pikeman); same stats.
Abbey (replaces Library); +15% Great People generation in this city; +2 Science for every 3 Citizens in this city. +1 maintenance.


Germany
Bismarck
Furor Teutonicus: 25% less land unit maintenance; +10% combat bonus when at war with more than one civilization.
Panzer (replaces Tank); same stats.
Horse Artillery (replaces Cannon); +1 Movement and automatically receives the Accuracy I promotion. See here and here.

As I have previously let on, I am not satisfied with Germany's current configuration. I believe it is too spread out and doesn't represent Germany as well as it could. To this end, I've split Germany into Germany and the Holy Roman Empire (which I would like to see in the game anyway). Read on for further explanation.

My rationale for the Holy Roman Empire is as follows:
The Unique Ability, Patchwork Empire, is named after a colloquial description used for the Empire, Flickenteppich, which means "patchwork carpet," used in reference to the at times loose confederation of the Empire's various provinces, duchies, reichs, etc. Though a confederation, the Empire was coherent enough to rely on its constituent parts in times of peace to contribute to the overall progress of the State (thus the gpt tribute) and in times of war to contribute men to the effort (thus the ability to take direct control of units). When at war, you do not receive the gpt benefit. The gpt will be modest, either a flat +1, +2 per City State ally or else a percentage of the gold they create for themselves, which would differ based on the wealth of each particular City State.
Note, this does NOT allow you to control City State production, only that City State's current unit(s). At the end of the war, once peace is made, you lose control of these units and they make their way home. Under your control, open borders apply. Under City State control, these units may pass freely in order to make it home.
The Unique Unit, the Landsknecht, is given to the Holy Roman Empire because the Landsknecht operated during this time frame and would be more suited to the Empire. This cheap unit would contribute to the war offensive of the Holy Roman Empire and bolster defense.
The Unique Building is representative of the Carolingian Renaissance and the Charters of Modern Thought issued by Charlemagne, which attracted many of his day's leading artists, theologians, scientists, musicians, teachers, and scholars. I would have given a faith bonus, but there is already a Faith/Science booster UB in the Mayan Pyramid. The +2 science per 3 citizens promotes growth in each city, rather than many cities with low populations. This also reinforces the idea of a Patchwork Empire. The "core" of the empire is relatively small, the size mostly made up of confederated members (allied City States).

Overall, the Holy Roman Empire is meant to play defensively, and can comfortably pursue a number of victories depending on play style. The ideal policy track for them would be a Tradition opener, Patronage to foster better City State relations, Piety or Rationalism depending on your preference, and most likely Freedom. They are versatile enough to go for any VC though.

My rationale for Germany is as follows:
The Unique Ability I reworked because although the Barbarian aspect of Furor Teutonicus was useful, it wasn't great and didn't scale well into the late game. I decided to add the bonus to fighting multiple enemies to reflect the tenacity of German soldiers against wars that involve multiple fronts. The "sweet spot" with this ability is fighting 2 foes. Anything after that and the ability declines in value. I thought about scaling it (+5% for 2 foes, +10% for 3 foes, etc.), but decided it would be too powerful.
The first Unique Unit , the Panzer, I had no problems with.
The second Unique Unit, the Horse Artillery, was inspired because the German's have a record of putting heavy guns to use in an effective manner. The cannon, as of now, does not have any unique alternatives, and horse artillery seemed like an ideal choice based off of Frederick's effective use of horse artillery regiments during his campaigns. Germany's horse artillery regiments inspired Napoleon to use them. Admittedly, horse artillery was first used by Gustavus Adolphus, but he only experimented with them, whereas Frederick embraced them.

Thanks for reading, please ask for clarification if I missed anything or if something was poorly explained.

Bump.

Hmmm - I actually prefer how Civ V has combined modern Germany and the HRE into a single civ. However, I do think that Charlemagne is a worthy leader for inclusion. Maybe he could lead a Frankish civ (essentially early Medieval France + Germany) instead? Also, I think that Germany's current unique ability would be better suited to some kind of Teuton/Roman-era Germannic Civ, and so could maybe be replaced with an ability that focuses on improving production (a suggestion which I've seen made by other people on the forum before - I think it's a really good idea!)?

I might replace Horse Artillery with Big Bertha Siege Artillery as a Artillery replacement rather than a Cannon replacement since the former was used by everyone during the Napoleonic Era of warfare but the latter was something pretty distinct to Germany during WWI. On the whole, pretty much along the lines of reforms I think Germany needs.

Vandal Thorne said:

I might replace Horse Artillery with Big Bertha Siege Artillery as a Artillery replacement rather than a Cannon replacement since the former was used by everyone during the Napoleonic Era of warfare but the latter was something pretty distinct to Germany during WWI. On the whole, pretty much along the lines of reforms I think Germany needs.

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It crossed my mind that perhaps horse artillery wasn't quite unique enough to warrant going to Germany over say France, Sweden, Austria, etc., but then I thought about how the Huns get a Battering Ram (not unique to them at all) and how the Carthaginians get the Quinquereme (which was used by a number of Mediterranean peoples of the day and, according to one source I read, was actually developed to nullify Carthage's naval advantage. Of course, Carthage adapted the Quinquereme as well.

I like the Big Bertha idea, I would just be concerned that it would be too close tech-wise to the Panzer. Then again, I suppose it would be no greater a tragedy than having Rome's Legions and Ballistae, which is to say not a tragedy at all unless you're on the receiving end.

Edit: Any thoughts on my HRE concept? Interesting UA? Too powerful? Historically accurate? Characteristically apt?

I like Germany's change to multiple fronts. The artillery change would be good, I think. All the civs tend to try and highlight what notable highlights stand out. Honestly, you think of German history, you think of their participation in both world wars. Anything before 1871 starts to delve into various other histories: Prussians, Franks, etc.

Unique WW1 units, in general, could use some love, so that is another reason. Although WW1 units didn't become more pronounced until G&K, so understandable why.

I love the idea of the Holy Roman Empire.

The UA does seem potentially too powerful, but I suppose no more so than Austria's. Would the units be on a leash? Is that even possible to mod? Seems like you could declare war on a far away, weak Civ, gather all the city-state units at the borders of another, then declare war and throw everything against your actual intended target.

What about perhaps turning all city-states into military city-states while at war? The influx of units would simulate gathering troops, and I don't think purposefully staying at war would be too powerful. If you have enough gold to keep all the city-states as allies, you have enough gold to purchase the combat units yourself. For actual military city-states, it could double the rate they give units. Certainly would make military-city states more appealing, which I feel is lacking.

Also, why the GP and science boost on abbey? I am far from a history expert, but isn't the Holy Roman Empire more recognized for shoving religion onto others, whether they wanted it or not, and much later on transitioning into The Crusades? Seems like something religion-based would be more fitting, and there are potentially some fun things you could do that isn't present in other Civs. Perhaps Abbey giving trained combat units a dual Defenders of the Faith and an opposite Just War (bonus near areas that do not follow your religion) type of bonuses. Could even stack with the actual Defenders of the Faith, since I suspect many players ignore everything other than Itinerate Preachers and Religious Texts.

Matthew. said:

The UA does seem potentially too powerful, but I suppose no more so than Austria's. Would the units be on a leash? Is that even possible to mod? Seems like you could declare war on a far away, weak Civ, gather all the city-state units at the borders of another, then declare war and throw everything against your actual intended target.

What about perhaps turning all city-states into military city-states while at war? The influx of units would simulate gathering troops, and I don't think purposefully staying at war would be too powerful. If you have enough gold to keep all the city-states as allies, you have enough gold to purchase the combat units yourself. For actual military city-states, it could double the rate they give units. Certainly would make military-city states more appealing, which I feel is lacking.

Also, why the GP and science boost on abbey? I am far from a history expert, but isn't the Holy Roman Empire more recognized for shoving religion onto others, whether they wanted it or not, and much later on transitioning into The Crusades? Seems like something religion-based would be more fitting, and there are potentially some fun things you could do that isn't present in other Civs. Perhaps Abbey giving trained combat units a dual Defenders of the Faith and an opposite Just War (bonus near areas that do not follow your religion) type of bonuses. Could even stack with the actual Defenders of the Faith, since I suspect many players ignore everything other than Itinerate Preachers and Religious Texts.

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The UA does seem potentially overpowered, but really it is all dependent on what units your CS allies have. I imagine you would have unlimited control of your CS units.

The upside of controlling CS units in war would be that they would actually contribute to the war; the downside of controlling CS units would be the fact that you are leaving their lands undefended, which could be disasterous for them. Perhaps as a way to balance this out, you could incur a diplomatic hit per turn from each city state who has a unit outside of its borders? This would simulate war weariness and would make an HRE player weigh the benefits of using a CS's units against the danger of losing that CS as an ally or having that CS overrun behind your back (by a land-grabbing Genghis, for example).

I like the idea decently of making it so that militaristic CSs grant more units during war, and I suppose it would be nice to combine it with (what is it, autocracy or order?) the social policy that doubles the rate. Then you'd have a 100% increase in unit contributions.

Turning them ALL into militaristic CSs would be a bit much probably.

The idea that you suggest for a reverse Just War sound cool and certainly very unique... "Crusaders" combined with Just War would give you an excuse to conquer any city, regardless of religion.

I just don't know if it is entirely appropriate for the HRE though; don't let the name mislead you too much. Though 'holy' is in the name, HRE isn't necessarily faith driven.

I went with the Abbey (which could be called something else, just not sure what), because I wanted to reflect the education reforms of Charlemagne, as well as the fact that Charlemagne attracted many influential men to his court ("great people"). In fact, this was an alternate UA idea for me:

Charter of Modern Thought: x% chance to steal another civilization's great person on spawn; this may not happen more than once every 30 turns.

I decided this was a little cheap and that everyone would hate HRE, kill him in 50 turns, burn Charlemagne's body, and scatter the ashes to the four winds.

In game, you'd get a great person and if HRE stole it, you'd get a notification that would say something like: Your Great (Engineer, Artist, Scientist, etc.) has left your side in favor of Charlemagne's court!

I recommend looking at these two Wikipedia articles: Charlemagne's Education Reforms and the Carolingian Renaissance.

To quote particular passages from Wikipedia:

To address these problems, Charlemagne ordered the creation of schools in a capitulary known as the Charter of Modern Thought, issued in 787.[9] A major part of his program of reform was to attract many of the leading scholars of his day to his court.

Charlemagne took a serious interest in scholarship, promoting the liberal arts at the court, ordering that his children and grandchildren be well-educated...

A part of Charlemagne's success as warrior and administrator can be traced to his admiration for learning. His reign and the era it ushered in are often referred to as the Carolingian Renaissance because of the flowering of scholarship, literature, art, and architecture which characterize it.

ferretbacon said:

I just don't know if it is entirely appropriate for the HRE though; don't let the name mislead you too much. Though 'holy' is in the name, HRE isn't necessarily faith driven.

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Ya, I know The Crusades themselves were much later, but the HRE laid the foundation. I believe there was some fighting with Muslims in Spain around that time, right? Not to mention the "converting by force" of the local populace. But I suppose it may have the wrong effect in a Civ context--labeling Charlemagne as something he wasn't.

Anyway, like I said, I am far from a history expert, but from what I have read, the whole time period was intellectually grim--hence being called the Dark Ages. Even the few bright spots, such as Charlemagne, were regarded as some to not be a true Renaissance, more as a struggle to hold on to the knowledge of the past. What changes did take place only affected a small portion of the populace (clergy), and had little long-term impact--hence the Renaissance coming out of Italy, not NW Europe.

Thinking about it more, the original idea of the Abbey isn't too bad. My initial reaction was that it tagged the HRE as an innovative Civ, when innovation around that time was severely lacking. The focus on GP isn't bad though.

What about something similar to Babylon? Abbey keeps the same 1:2 science, but also gives a free Great Artist when the tech is researched, and gives the 15% increase to GP? The early culture from planting the GA would greatly speed up social policies, and that certainly seems to fit Charlemagne. The 15% would also help speed up the production of future GP.