[Religion and Revolution]: Mod Development

As we are talking about new maps and map options, would it be possible to do something with the rivers in the game? In civ94 there were two types of river, minor and major. In C4C there is just one type of river that looks more like a stream than a river. It has always puzzled and vexed me that in both versions of the game, ships cannot navigate up rivers but they can be crossed by every type of unit except ships. Aside from the resource bonus, the river tile in its present incarnation seems somewhat pointless!

Personally I think navigatible rivers by ship would add a bit more fun to the exploration piece of the game, however, this might cause more problems than it is worth as the map size would undoubtably have to increase to incorporate such a feature.

Hi Ray, Well I don't want to remove that feature either. When I added inventions, I modified soldier's strength. I wanted to test my modifications, and I wanted to fight against the king's regulars. I chose "Independence" Era, but however I only had 0% rebel sentiment.

What I'm trying to say is that the Era setting could be practical if we want to test specific mechanisms. We should be able to start with colonies, with a higher rebel sentiment and of course with inventions. What do you think?

Hi Colonialfan, that's a good question. I'm looking into python map scripts. I'll look into it.

Robert Surcouf said:

What I'm trying to say is that the Era setting could be practical if we want to test specific mechanisms. We should be able to start with colonies, with a higher rebel sentiment and of course with inventions. What do you think?

Click to expand...

Interesting idea, but I believe that it could be quite a lot of work.
(Especially the point with starting with many colonies.)

I am just wondering if it is worth the effort.
(I never use it myself and a lot of players won't use it either.)

Robert Surcouf said:

Hi Colonialfan, that's a good question. I'm looking into python map scripts. I'll look into it.

Click to expand...

Yes, could be interesting to have 2 Types of rivers.
(Rivers and Huge Streams. )

RayStuttgart said:

Interesting idea, but I believe that it could be quite a lot of work.

Click to expand...

That's what I'm afraid of too...

RayStuttgart said:

Especially the point with starting with many colonies.

Click to expand...

Actually that might be the easiest part
In CvPlayer.cpp there is one line with a comment next to a "return False" line. And the comment is "prevent buying cities in advanced start" if I remember correctly.

I'm actually hoping that we could simply remove that line and see what happens.
Maybe I'm dreaming...
However, there are many other "stupid" lines in the DLL files. There's is even a line to prevent bonuses to appear on peaks, even if your bonus is supposed to be on peaks!

Hi everybody,

this is another aspect I had been thinking about for quite a while.
(I am really not sure, if this is a good idea, but I would like to talk about it.)

Tools required for City- and Plot-Professions

It always felt kind of strange to me, that a colonist taking the profession "Pioneer" requires Tools to be equiped but if he takes profession "Silverminer" or profession "Blacksmith" or another where usually tools are necessary he does not.

I was thinking about something like that:
(just examples so you get an idea)

Silverminer, Goldminer, Oreminer, -> 20 Tools
Blacksmith, Weaponsmith, Cannonsmith -> 15 Tools
Lumberjack, Farmer, Tobacco Planter, ... -> 10 Tools
Fisher, Pearls Hunter, Shepherd, Rancher ... -> 5 Tools
Hunter, Walruss Hunter -> 5 Weapons, 5 Tools
Preacher, Statesmen, Shopkeeper, ... -> 0 Tools
Cigarmaker, Rummaker, Fur Trader, Tanner, ... -> 5 Tools
...

Actually this aspect could be changed quite easily in XML of professions ...

BUT (Problems):

A) Natives do not really have access to tools and they would also take professions like "Silverminer", "Oreminer", "Lumberjack", ...

--> We would have to define equivalent professions for Natives (blocked for Europeans) that do not use tools.
(So Natives would not need tools for these professions.)

B) AI is not very good in supplying itself with (or producing) tools.
(AI ususally buys tools when hurrying buildings for example.)

--> I am very afraid of blocking AI from building up a good economy.
(I think we could solve this with some minor AI-cheats and increasing importance of tools for AI.)

C) First City would need tools too.

--> The very first European City would get 20 Tools for free.

Summary:

I am not sure, if this is a good idea, but I would like to hear your thoughts about it.

I think it is possible but it would make tools a lot more important and it also would slow down game speed, because you would need to invest more money for these tools.

The difficult aspect again, is to get AI to handle this well.

---------------

Feedback ?

Hi everyone,


Well I don't know what to say... I like the idea. Adding tools to professions is a good idea. But I don't like the idea of special native professions and/or AI cheats !

So what can we do? I don't know what to say...
You'll probably think I'm mad !

Robert Surcouf said:

I like the idea.

Click to expand...

Generally I do like the idea too, of course.
(But as you see, there are problems with it.)

Robert Surcouf said:

But I don't like the idea of special native professions and/or AI cheats !

Click to expand...

The player will never know about special native professions until he looks into the XML.

They are totally the same (even the names) with only one difference, which is that the professions of the natives don't require tools.
(So in gameplay everything stays the same for natives.)

The AI cheats will really be minimal.
(For example they would buy tools directly from europe when not having enough tools for equipping a profession or if enough tools are stored in another town, the tools could be beamed.
It is not like they are getting something for free.)

Also the AI cheats are just the last drawback if AI does not achieve handling the concept otherwise.
(We could increase importance of tools for AI.)

Robert Surcouf said:

You'll probably think I'm mad !

Click to expand...

No, it is just the same with me.
(I like the idea itself but I am struggling with the side effects for AI.)

Well then why not... But we would still have to remove the native professions from Colo-Pedia, no?

Robert Surcouf said:

Well then why not...

Click to expand...

I suggest again, we put this idea to our list "Undecided / Archive".
(Thus we could concentrate on our more important ideas and maybe take a look at this again later on.
We might find some better concept ...)

I believe that both of us think that the idea itself might be interesting but also that there might be problems arising.
(It is simply one of the many ideas I was thinking about and wanted to see what you think about it or if there might be a better concept with less problems ...)

Robert Surcouf said:

But we would still have to remove the native professions from Colo-Pedia, no?

Click to expand...

Yes, you are right, we would have to do that.

There were two features i was looking for in a new mod is there any chance of these?

1 Having a loyalist victory(called dominion like what Canada and Australia got they didn't rebel) if there was a character called a governor which does the same thing as a statesmen but generates loyalty and by having this keeps the tax rate down and sends more troops. The goal could be to conquer the natives in stead of fighting the king.

2 When you beat the game you should have the option (somehow) to be at war with another colony and there king. Sometimes when i play i'm looking for more to do at the end. This would be good if you beat your king the game shouldn't just end. The other colonies would then fear you and your empire.

tox_von said:

There were two features i was looking for in a new mod is there any chance of these?

Click to expand...

Currently they are not on our list.
(Actually both aspects are not really interesting to me.)

But who knows what the futurew will bring.

Hi tox_von,

You're not the first one to ask us about a loyalist victory. As Ray told you for now we will not develop such feature.
However, we would really like to hear what you guys think of our mod. So could you try it when we release it and comment it (positive aspects/negative aspects)?

I like the idea of a loyalist victory, however everything in the game makes only sense for the opposite (Independence victory). It would imply many changes in the game...

However, there is another drawback in your idea which is even more decisive in my opinion... How would we actually win? By defeating all the natives? That doesn't really fit Canadian history, am I right? This kind of victory looks like a domination victory...And generating loyalty could be quite unbalancing. You would lower tax rate and have good relations with your king, so you would probably get richer and buy as many troops as you wish. There must be a drawback in every choice you make.

So, we might add a loyalist victory condition some day, but we must think this trough, which is not the case for now...

I'm not sure I've understood "part 2". When we "beat the game", you mean after independence?

Robert Surcouf said:

As Ray told you for now we will not develop such feature.

Click to expand...

My "problems" with the 2 features:

A) For now, I really want to focus on the period of "Colonization of the New World" and "War of Indpendence".
Our list is already really long and our manpower is limited ...

B) I really want to have a certain feeling and atmosphere that also fits the Aspect of "Historical Authenticity" at least in general.
Both aspects do not fit into the atmosphere I would like.

C) The two features would not improve my personal fun with this game.
(Everybody has a different taste ...)

The Loyalist Victory could also involve building Wonders like Government Buildings like a Space Race and you have to have say 10 buildings. And the Loyalist victory could also involve beating a rival colony and there king similar to independence.

What else should happen after independence other than more war? You could also build a Palace type central building to trade with.After Independence US started more wars with Mexico for Land and bought more Land from the French.This could also happen have a goal to collect a certain amount of gold to win.

tox_von said:

The Loyalist Victory could also involve building Wonders like Government Buildings like a Space Race and you have to have say 10 buildings. And the Loyalist victory could also involve beating a rival colony and there king similar to independence.

What else should happen after independence other than more war? You could also build a Palace type central building to trade with.After Independence US started more wars with Mexico for Land and bought more Land from the French.This could also happen have a goal to collect a certain amount of gold to win.

Click to expand...

All nice ideas, but probably not in this mod.
(I tried to explain here, why I would not like to do it.)

Please understand.

So ok, maybe it is time for another idea / concept.

Smuggling Ships and Royal Patrols

1. Part of the Feature: "Smuggling Ship"

• It can only be built and not bought.
• The ship itself is relatively expensive to build.
• It has hidden nationality.
• It is pretty weak but relatively fast.
• It has only one cargo slot.
• With these ships you will be able to sell boycotted goods in Europe.
• With these ships you will be able to sell without taxes but 30% bribing instead.
• Number of these ships is limited to 10% of your total fleet, because else the king might notice.
• AI will build a few of these too.
• There will be a new UnitAI "Smuggling_Ship".

Remarks:

Since the ship has hidden nationality all other Europeans might attack if they spot it.
Since it is pretty expensive and limited in numbers, you will still have to do normal trade.
Also it is only interesting if you have hight tax rate and / or boycotted goods.
AI is supposed to make (limited) use of this features too.

2. Part of the Feature: "Royal Patrols"

From time to time there will appear a "Man-o-War" of the king at a "Sail-to-Europe"-Sea-tile near the corresponding European colony.
(Random with relatively low chances.)

From there it will start patroling the area for X rounds.
(Maybe something like 5 rounds.)

During this time it will attack Privateers (of other nations than its own colony), Pirates and Smuggling Ships (of all nations).
(There will be a new UnitAI Royal_Patrol.)

It will not attack any other ships.

After the X rounds, it will sail back to the "Sail-to-Europe"-Sea-tile, where it was spawned and disappear then.

You will not be able to attack the Royal Patrols.
(Not the ones of your own king and also not the ones of other kings.)

You can basically only run away or defend.

If a European Player has any war with another European player, no Royal Patrols of his king will be spawned.
Also if any such war starts, all Royal Patrols immediately withdraw from the New World.
(The king does not want to get involved in wars of the colonies.)

Also, once a European Player starts War of Independence, no Royal Patrols of his king will be spawned anymore.

Remarks:

The Royal Patrols will not appear all the time.
Balancing is supposed to take care, that only about (Number of European Player) / 2 Royal Patrols are on the map at the same time.
(So about 2 or 3.)

It is not supposed to affect normal wars.
Only Privateers and Smuggling Ships will need to be a little more careful.
Also this feature is supposed to ensure that Pirates will not totally block a player (especially AI) if they have already defeated the war ships.

--------------------

Feedback ?

Has anything been programmed with the new resources other than the screens? I would like to see a few of these at least done and then a beta released. Then people can test these while new features are being added and give comments. Then have a new release every week/month with a few more and any not done can just have a red cross type thing through it saying in next edition like demos do.

tox_von said:

Has anything been programmed with the new resources other than the screens? I would like to see a few of these at least done and then a beta released. Then people can test these while new features are being added and give comments. Then have a new release every week/month with a few more and any not done can just have a red cross type thing through it saying in next edition like demos do.

Click to expand...

Many ressources (all you saw on the Screens) have been fully implemented in my old private project which was basically only a Preview of possible features for other modders.
(Yields, Bonusses, Professions, Specialists, Buildings, ...)

My old private project however is dead and will not be released, since it was unbalanced and in the end also quite experimental, meaning buggy.
(We will only use it to take out some features I had already done / prepared at that time.)

We will not add new ressources in the first release of Religon and Revolution however.
(We will add them in a later release, probably release 2.)

Also there will be no release, not even a beta, before we have merged with TAC 2.03.
(TAC 2.03 does not exist yet.)

After we have merged, there will be a beta-release to some chosen beta-testers.
Then we will fix the bugs and have the official release.

And no, there will not be a beta-release every week.
(This would not help us at all.)

We will have one or maybe in exceptions two beta-release before every official release.

We really want to give Quality to the community.

Currently we are simply setting up our plans and preparing features for fast implementation / integration when TAC 2.03 is available.
(If there is something available to community, we will tell it.)

Please be a little patient.
(This is a long term project of pretty extreme size. We will not be done by tomorrow ...)

Ok, here is another concept.

European Events

I want to introduce Events like famine, war, religious conflicts, diseases, ... in Europe.

Yes there are Events in the Python/XML-Eventsystem, that do simple Events similar to that already.
(Like giving a few immigrants right away, or increasing prices.)

The "European Events" I am considering would however be implemented in DLL and also be a lot more powerful / complex.
(Balancing would still be in XML.)

1. European Events are limited in time.
After the Event is over, the effects disappear again.

2. Effects of European Events can accumulate.
There cannot only be famine or war or diseases, there could be all of them at the same time.
(There will be maximum values for accumulation of effects.)

3. European Events can have multiple effects.

4. European Events could be

A) Random
B) Historical (at a certain game turn, which fits to some historical event)
C) Both (Random and Historical Events existing)

I really prefer A) Random.
(I do not like to know exactly when something is going to happen and also all other events are random.)

5. These European Events affect all European Players the same.

6. Balancing of Effects

A random will calculate, if an Event will occur.
A second random will calculate how long the Event will last.
A third random will calculate the severity of the Effects.

All balanced in XML.

7. GUI

Once these European Events occur your King will inform you about it by a DLL-Diplo-Event.
Eventually you will have the posibility to sell or buy goods (Weapons, Food, ...) or buy Units very profitably during these DLL-Diplo-Events.

When the European Event is over, there will simply be a message.

While these Events are active, there will be icons displayed at the top of the Europe-Screen.
(Every Event will get its own icon.)

Mouse-Over on the icon will display its effects.

8. Examples

Famine:

Starting DLL-Diplo-Event:
King will offer you to lower your current taxes, if you donate all the food stored in your cities.
You can refuse (king will be angry) or accept (king will be happy).

Immigration Threshold is lowered. (20% to 50%)
Prices for Food rise. (30% to 70%)
Increased chances for King asking a tax-raise. (50%)

War:

Starting DLL-Diplo-Event:
King will ask you, to give him a certain amount of money right away and he would lower your tax-rate in exchange.
You can refuse (king will be angry) or accept (king will be happy).

Immigration Threshold is lowered. (20% to 50%)
Prices for Weapons, Cannons and Horses, rise. (50% to 100%)
Prices of all other goods lowered. (30% to 60%)
Prices for Ships and Military Units rises. (30% to 70%)
Increased chances for King asking a tax rais. (50%)
Increased chances for King asking you to start a war with another colony. (100%)

Religious Conflicts

Starting DLL-Diplo-Event:
The Second (Religious) Parent will inform you about the situation.
He will demand that you give him a certain amount of money and in exchange he will send you some bishops to convert the religious minority of your civ,
to prevent situation like in Europe in your colonies.
You can refuse (Second Parent will be angry) or accept (Second Parent king will be happy).

Immigration Threshold of the minority religion rises. (50% to 100%)
Immigration Threshold of the majority religion rises. (10% to 20%)

Diseases / Epidemics

Starting DLL-Diplo-Event:
King will offer you to lower your current taxes, if you donate all the medicine stored in your cities.
You can refuse (king will be angry) or accept (king will be happy).

Immigration Thresholds is lowered. (20% to 50%)
Food prices rise. (30% to 50%)
Medicine prices rise. (50% to 100%)
All other prices fall. (30% to 50%)

Period of Peace and Prosperity
(This event is the only one exclusive.
It cannot happen if one of the above has occured.
Also, while it is active, none of the above can occur.)

Starting DLL-Diplo-Event:
King will simply inform you that everything is going really great.

Immigration Threshold rises. (10% to 20%)
Food prices fall. (10% to 20%)
All other prices rise. (30% to 50%)
Lowered chances for King asking a tax-raise. (50%)

------------------------

Feedback ?

Hi everyone!

I love both ideas!

About the first one (smuggling and Royal patrol), we would have to be careful... Could everyone use the "Sail-to-Europe"-Sea-tile spawned by the patrol? I don't wan't to see to many "Sail-to-Europe"-Sea-tile's appearing in the middle of my maps!

About the second idea, we must add some randomness of course. We could trigger "Martin Luther's 95 thesis" in 1517, but after 5 or 6 games we would be quite bored!
So I vote for random events too!