G-Minor LXXXIX

Memoryjar said:

I failed to improve my score on maps with obs and with full tradition.
You don't need obs if you have 6 or 7 cities. Ihad 1K bpt in my best games, without obs.

Growth is really the key. So, I delay too Education for Engineering and Colossus.

I use faith from wonders to have decent faith, it costs many hammers. I'll try without to see if without wonders obs make it.

But you need this free settler and cheap next. I had only one game where I found a settler in a ruin.

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Yeah, the problem I have on Ice Age is finding 6 or 7 good city spots with accessible cargo ship routes. It's much easier to find 4. On the other hand, they tend to have limited growth because of lack of rivers and too much nearby tundra.

If you can find 6 good spots to place cities, then yeah, with smaller cities, observatories aren't as relevant. But if your capital and one other city has an observatory, you can send 3 cargo ships to each of them for maximum beakers per population. /shrug

Lots of ways to play this. I'm really thinking NC before GL is the strongest play because you can get NC out with 2-3 cities super early while it's cheap, and thus not have to delay planting 4-5 expos.

T193 DV. 2 cycles. I was too optimistic and misscalculated, was trying for 170ish, should have held PP for another 10-15 turns. Also, did not play the tribute game, which slowed me down considerably as I could not rush buy science buildings. Will try again, settler is a lot of fun. No obs, but needed Astronomy anyway, may try for a mountain start in the next game.

I tried Petra start (rainfall wet), but Ice Age nerfs it. I didn't roll a good place, no or just one hill next to river.
Salt start is better.

Memoryjar said:

I tried Petra start (rainfall wet), but Ice Age nerfs it. I didn't roll a good place, no or just one hill next to river.
Salt start is better.

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Yeah Petra is nerfed on this setting. Or perhaps "balanced". I only build Petra for the trade route. I pick whichever city has the most desert tiles, and try to make sure I get one with at least 3, even if they're flatland.

Salt is probably best but it's rare to get 3+ salt in the capital on Ice Age. So I usually go with Sun God or +1 food from camps. Deer are plentiful.

I end up taking +10% growth rate if I can't don't have enough resources to justify the other two.

It's really almost impossible to over-emphasize food on Settler. Unless you don't have any decent production tiles.

My big challenge in my current game is that 4 of my opponents were on the other continent, so I'm having 2 swim over two armies before the world congress vote, and time is running out! :yikes:

Cromagnus said:

My big challenge in my current game is that 4 of my opponents were on the other continent, so I'm having 2 swim over two armies before the world congress vote, and time is running out! :yikes:

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Serendipity, I thought to try to stop wide continents maps. On smaller, you have more spots to settle with access to sea and cargo ships. I'm a little bored to settle my caps and realize 20 turns later that good spot can't be reach by my cargos before harbors and world tour. Ice lock is a little bit annoying.

On wide continents, I can clear all but 2 AIs with 5 archers/CB/XB and my initial warriors (thanks to barbs camps). I end around 15 tours before WC vote, so maybe with some luck, smaller continents make it.

Memoryjar said:

Serendipity, I thought to try to stop wide continents maps. On smaller, you have more spots to settle with access to sea and cargo ships. I'm a little bored to settle my caps and realize 20 turns later that good spot can't be reach by my cargos before harbors and world tour. Ice lock is a little bit annoying.

On wide continents, I can clear all but 2 AIs with 5 archers/CB/XB and my initial warriors (thanks to barbs camps). I end around 15 tours before WC vote, so maybe with some luck, smaller continents make it.

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My random observations on this gauntlet to add to the current conversations--

1) Settings: Rainfall (Normal vs. Wet) gives markedly different maps in my tries. Normal is lots of plains; good for production and clear paths to barb encampments and conquest. Wet has better and worse aspects. Many more grasslands hexes to get that vital extra food for growth. The bad? Marshes everywhere! And annoying jungles to boot. Take forever to improve and bog down movement. Not sure the added 3/4 food hexes outweighs the wasted tiles from marshes and jungles and the pain of moving about.

2) Units - If you're ready to build units between the time of building archers and building composite bowmen/crossbowmen, a catapult goes a long way on Settler. One of those and your Brute hordes can take out just about anything. Some event risk, as in if the AI suddenly decides to potshot your lone siege weapon, you are hosed, but that has rarely happened for me .

Memoryjar said:

Serendipity, I thought to try to stop wide continents maps. On smaller, you have more spots to settle with access to sea and cargo ships. I'm a little bored to settle my caps and realize 20 turns later that good spot can't be reach by my cargos before harbors and world tour. Ice lock is a little bit annoying.

On wide continents, I can clear all but 2 AIs with 5 archers/CB/XB and my initial warriors (thanks to barbs camps). I end around 15 tours before WC vote, so maybe with some luck, smaller continents make it.

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I've had the same thought. Ice lock is really frustrating. In my most recent game (shown in the picture) I only had one expo connected to the capital. It worked out though. I sent 5 trade routes between Marrakech, Munich and Cologne, and even though Marrakech didn't have great dirt, the sea resources helped a lot. But the downside was that my capital never got very big. By the end of the game, Munich was size 31 and Berlin was only size 30. But, since Munich had Kilimanjaro and sea resources, I tossed in an observatory, rush-bought the 3rd-tier river tiles, and it sufficed. Essentially it was a second capital. But, if I had been able to connect all trade routes to the capital, man, it could have been super early Education.



Speaking of rush-buying tiles, I know it sounds wasteful, but I think doing so to keep growth going, and to steal them from nearby CS, is *totally* worth it. Also, early Pyramids is a must, more important than GL. Once you get cargo ships going, you can't build improvements fast enough otherwise. IMHO.

zenmaster said:

My random observations on this gauntlet to add to the current conversations--

1) Settings: Rainfall (Normal vs. Wet) gives markedly different maps in my tries. Normal is lots of plains; good for production and clear paths to barb encampments and conquest. Wet has better and worse aspects. Many more grasslands hexes to get that vital extra food for growth. The bad? Marshes everywhere! And annoying jungles to boot. Take forever to improve and bog down movement. Not sure the added 3/4 food hexes outweighs the wasted tiles from marshes and jungles and the pain of moving about.

2) Units - If you're ready to build units between the time of building archers and building composite bowmen/crossbowmen, a catapult goes a long way on Settler. One of those and your Brute hordes can take out just about anything. Some event risk, as in if the AI suddenly decides to potshot your lone siege weapon, you are hosed, but that has rarely happened for me .

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I agree, zenmaster, given the jungle chopping time, grassland might not be better unless it's a river tile. I'd rather have a 2food1production farm that took 5 turns to build than a 3food farm that took 11 turns to build.

I haven't tried catapults, I've been relying entirely on upgrading archers. I try not to build any units at all after my initial few archers and triremes. Until the late game that is.

I love bananas : 4 food, 2 beakers.

Memoryjar said:

I love bananas : 4 food, 2 beakers.

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Me too. I'm very torn about chopping jungle with bananas. I often just leave it. The +1 food is perhaps not worth losing 2 science. It depends on the city though. I had a very low food expo in my last game with only one available trade route, so I opted to improve that tile. I needed all the food I could get for that city. But that city had like 3 horses and 3 silver, so it had great gold and production. It was worth losing the 2 beakers to boost growth and be able to work all the good tiles.

I think one of the trickiest things about Settler is managing King days. It can be very expensive to keep yourself in King days. 200 to improve a CS resource, 500 to become ally... is that worth it? Swim a worker over and gift it to an AI just so they improve their stupid tiles? I can't decide if it's all worth it. And then sometimes NO ONE has it.

This map is very subject to random chance, even if you win ruin lotto.

EDIT: Also thinking maybe rushing Angkor Wat is worthwhile in this challenge, because otherwise your growth is tile-limited. If you reach Education at t90 or sooner and rush-buy universities, there could be room in the build queue to have Angkor Wat finished by t100. Maybe this requires 6 cities, because my build queue was strained with 5.

EDIT: PS that screenshot above is a personal record for me. (255 beakers/turn on t103)

For wonders my choice are : Pyra, GL, HG, Chichen Itza, Oracle (secularism), Pisa, FP (I think to stop it, no need if you find all CS), PT.
I failed a T168 victory for 2 turns (1 to complete Porcelain tower and grab this last GS and 1 to complete Atomic theory because not enough beakers to overflow).
I ended with cities around 20 pop, so I don't need so much food to have good science. Satellites only need monument, grany, lighthouse, library, universities, public school, market, hanse. So not so much hammers.
Trading post on jungle tiles is 2 beakers and 3 gold (useful to ally all CS in the last 10 turns).

Six cities seems the best size. Hope to pop a settler from ruins, it's only 4-5 turns with no growth in caps for one settler. It's common to have one or two AI caps near your start position. If an AI pop a settler from a ruins sometimes, it settle it on a good spot (sometimes).

When AIs are far, I drop. I failed some games when they are far (behind CS or over 20 tiles away). And you need those spots to have a decent city.

And for AIs, put some warmonger like Atilla, Ghenghis, Shaka. So you can gift capitals and cities to them to avoid beakers penalty. Atilla and Ghenghis never liberated a city in my games. Never test with Shaka because is always my neighbor and Ulundi join quickly my empire.

Memoryjar said:

For wonders my choice are : Pyra, GL, HG, Chichen Itza, Oracle (secularism), Pisa, FP (I think to stop it, no need if you find all CS), PT.
I failed a T168 victory for 2 turns (1 to complete Porcelain tower and grab this last GS and 1 to complete Atomic theory because not enough beakers to overflow).
I ended with cities around 20 pop, so I don't need so much food to have good science. Satellites only need monument, grany, lighthouse, library, universities, public school, market, hanse. So not so much hammers.
Trading post on jungle tiles is 2 beakers and 3 gold (useful to ally all CS in the last 10 turns).

Six cities seems the best size. Hope to pop a settler from ruins, it's only 4-5 turns with no growth in caps for one settler. It's common to have one or two AI caps near your start position. If an AI pop a settler from a ruins sometimes, it settle it on a good spot (sometimes).

When AIs are far, I drop. I failed some games when they are far (behind CS or over 20 tiles away). And you need those spots to have a decent city.

And for AIs, put some warmonger like Atilla, Ghenghis, Shaka. So you can gift capitals and cities to them to avoid beakers penalty. Atilla and Ghenghis never liberated a city in my games. Never test with Shaka because is always my neighbor and Ulundi join quickly my empire.

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I agree, nearby AI capitals (in good spots) seems to be the key. With a couple of archers + barb camps you can capture multiple capitals by t70. That, + liberty settler, + settler ruin = 5 cities. I try to build NC before I capture any cities. If you can delay GL and still get NC quickly, you can use GL on a better tech... Civil Service, Education. When I've tried to wait to finish GL until I complete Education, (to bulb Acoustics and get Secularism super-early) an AI has built GL every time before t80. But it's generally safe to wait until t70, so if you can complete Theology and Civil Service by then, with good timing you can bulb Education, plant a built/bought settler, and capture 2 capitals by t70-t75. This gives max benefit from Tradition and delays the tech penalty a bit. But I don't know. Maybe it's better to capture capitals earlier for the additional growth?

Also, I think I'm just having bad luck with AIs building GL before I finish Education. On Settler it should still be there on t90.

Sejong built GL T53.

Excuse my ignorance, what wonder is Pyra? And.another stupid question is there a difference in the culture and science penalties from extra cities pupetted vs. annexed? Does NOT building a courthouse in annexed city have any adverse effects apart from happiness?
On GL slingshot to Edu GL gets built around t80. But science focused civs build it earlier. I avoid them like the plage.

Bleidraner said:

Excuse my ignorance, what wonder is Pyra? And.another stupid question is there a difference in the culture and science penalties from extra cities pupetted vs. annexed? Does NOT building a courthouse in annexed city have any adverse effects apart from happiness?
On GL slingshot to Edu GL gets built around t80. But science focused civs build it earlier. I avoid them like the plage.

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1st ? - Pyra should be Pyramids
2nd ? - I'll defer as I am not 100% sure.
3rd ? - To my knowledge, No. At higher levels, courthouses are huge of course, but here they're pointless and detrimental to your economy!

Not sure GL "slingshot" is worth trying. Wasted hammers; opportunity costs; high frustration level if you've got a great game going and an AI beats you to the GL. Think it's very cool if it can be pulled off well, though!

zenmaster said:

1st ? - Pyra should be Pyramids
2nd ? - I'll defer as I am not 100% sure.
3rd ? - To my knowledge, No. At higher levels, courthouses are huge of course, but here they're pointless and detrimental to your economy!

Not sure GL "slingshot" is worth trying. Wasted hammers; opportunity costs; high frustration level if you've got a great game going and an AI beats you to the GL. Think it's very cool if it can be pulled off well, though!

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Puppeted cities increase research costs and national wonder build times (as I recently learned) but they do not increase social policy costs, unlike annexed cities.

I think delaying GL is worth it because of what you can build instead. Cargo ships at t40 are worth more than an early GL. At t60 or t70, GL should be a very fast build. But yes it's a risk. Still, you can get t90 education without building GL at all, so i consider those early turns in the build queue better spent elsewhere. But it's certainly debatable.

Yeah, having sejong in the game means competition for GL for sure. After losing GL I tweaked my my opponents based on low expansion rate and low wonder priority. I had previously had Pacal, Gandhi, Ethiopia, Brazil and Mahmoud in the game. They've now been replaced.

Cromagnus said:

Puppeted cities increase research costs and national wonder build times (as I recently learned) but they do not increase social policy costs, unlike annexed cities.

I think delaying GL is worth it because of what you can build instead. Cargo ships at t40 are worth more than an early GL. At t60 or t70, GL should be a very fast build. But yes it's a risk. Still, you can get t90 education without building GL at all, so i consider those early turns in the build queue better spent elsewhere. But it's certainly debatable.

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I hear you and agree to a point, but would hate to waste hammers and build time in a truly ideal setup. If I were planning to not go for GL initially, I think if my civ was in a really sweet setup, I would not bother trying GL in capital after turn 65-70 or so. Would try in decent production expansion city on hopes it would work and not lose too much opportunity cost if it failed, assuming that city had no really vital builds slated. Capital could be building Guilds, Borobrodur, Nat Epic, or something else capital-centric. Now if your civ setup is iffy and not the greatest but possibly viable, gamble away! In that sense, yes, it is definitely worth trying.

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On an unrelated point, Memoryjar had some luck gifting AI civs captured capitals to avoid the puppet science penalty. Anyone know other civs beside Genghis and Atilla that are reliable non-liberators?

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In yet another unrelated question, when are people getting their Writer's Guilds up? ASAP, or after growth/building development reaches a certain level? That's one variable I've been toying with. Also, can never justify building National Epic in this one, though when it's late game and you wish your capital had just a bit more GP "oomph" for another Scientist or such, you wish you could have squeezed it in somewhere !

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On the matter of number of cities, I'm in Vadalaz' camp, more than 4 seems unnecessary, unless you have awesome spot/opportunity for it.

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Fun gauntlet with so many things to try

Writer's guild before Education, National Epic after. This is my timing.
Often my capital build Borobudur or a University, so Epic fall after.

Memoryjar said:

Writer's guild before Education, National Epic after. This is ma timing.
Often my capital build Borobudur or a University, so Epic fall after.

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I rarely have time to build gardens or National Epic anymore. There are often, as a result, games where I just barely miss an extra scientist by one turn. But it rarely prevents me from winning in one cycle. There are just too many useful buildings and wonders to justify the space in the build queue. However, I often wonder if skipping them is a mistake. :shrug:

Like, one extra GS would mean I could skip PT. I also sometimes wonder if it would be better to build Pisa immediately, especially in games with 6+ cities. If you build it immediately and use it for a great general or something, you don't set back your writer/artist/scientist points. This could result in 3 (or more) extra great people by game's end, making it worth not using the GP on anyone useful.

I build Writer's Guild ASAP but sometimes I delay it if I'm trying to slow down my culture anyway so as to time secularism. But usually in that case I just don't fill the slots.

In my experience, faith per turn answer your question. If you can buy 2 GS, maybe National Epic, garden and Pisa can be skipped. Without, you'll miss one GS.
My question is more about workshops. I build them in satellites then public school and finally science and wealth at the end. I feel like I wast 8 turns to build them. On the other side public school are up early.

Pisa is like +25 % for great persons in ideologies, sooner I have them, better it is.

Memoryjar said:

In my experience, faith per turn answer your question. If you can buy 2 GS, maybe National Epic, garden and Pisa can be skipped. Without, you'll miss one GS.
My question is more about workshops. I build them in satellites then public school and finally science and wealth at the end. I feel like I wast 8 turns to build them. On the other side public school are up early.

Pisa is like +25 % for great persons in ideologies, sooner I have them, better it is.

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Good point. I think workshops are worth it though, for the secularism beakers if nothing else.

But, on settler, all of this is secondary to getting more (good) cities, sooner. My best finish time I had 4 cities by t26. My current experiment is to try beelining archery and capture 2 cities by t35. (One capital, one CS) I think 4 founded cities + two captured cities is the best. Early growth, early gold, and more cities capable of building early wonders. The only problem is that a CS I'm willing to lose is one I want to demand tribute from the whole game... But capturing two capitals by t35 isn't easy...