QSC-c1 "Irritated Mao" game progress.

Couple of charts detailing the first 6 rounds of barb contact and the effect on play, including: production choices, worker actions, and in turn the effect on the QSC score.



Note that all barb huts happened in rounds 1-3.



Lee lost population in the capital. And 2 warriors were killed trying to disperse camps.

Cracker redirect warriors to protect against roaming barbs, lost reg warrior to conscript barb. Used horses to roam the country looking for barbs to kill and get promotions. Killed 4 camps for a total of 100 gold, but lost a warrior and a worker. Not to mention 5 barb galleys that nearly kill his only galley.

Jaxom almost lost the MP in Beijing to roaming barbs.

Borealis cleared 2 camps and used cash to build embassy with Zulus and England.

Steve started to build archers just for barb hunting. And started with building spear escorts for his settlers.

Charis used warriors to protect cities from out side the city, "zone defense" . Had to forgo another barracks to build spear instead for protection of Shanghi.

Meldor had barbs pillage wines. This can be very expensive in the short term.

Swift had no barb contact, or at least none reported.

Hotrod finished warrior JIT.

SJF: Modified his original plan to build just settlers in the capital to build warriors solely for barb protection.

Theos suffled warriors to protect against barbs.

Looking at the happiness chart...

Argh. Checked my 1525 save and realize that I'd thought I'd raised the lux slider for 1 turn, only to not actually do so. I'll have to remember to do it before I play the next set tomorrow.

Hello everybody!

I've been shadowing along with the game here as an alternate player and was contacted by cracker to see if I'd like to join in at this stage since there was a spot to fill. How could I refuse?

At his suggestion, I have played the second set of 30 turns, starting with theos' 2590bc save, that was closest in approach to my first 30 - yep, I got no tech from huts either!

Anyway, without further ado, here's my report for turns 30-60. Let's see if my pacifistic ways can keep up with the warmongers!



2590BC(30)

Change Shanghai from granary to warrior. Beijing left on settler, won't build granary with both cow and wheat irrigated. Turn up science slider to 100% (Alphabet in 7).

2550BC(31)

Shanghai builds warrior, start worker. Spot Zulu settler pair heading S towards choke region, may want to park a warrior there soon.

2510BC(32)

Beijing build settler, start settler. Settler heads towards coast near the gold hill.Warrior in Beijing leaves city on wheat road and heads S. Warrior near home spots English borders SW of Beijing with wines. Warrior in NW spies light purple borders, also with wines - will get contact next turn.

2470BC(33)

Contact India. Ghandi doesn't have The Wheel and will trade Alphabet, C Burial + 7g for it. Take deal. Break even science now gets BW in 5. Beijing warrior spots horses just SE of Beijing.

2430BC(34)

American scout wanders past India's borders. Contact Abe and he's ahead in tech too, no deals possible. Straight swap with India, HR for Mysticism.

2390BC(35)

Canton founded on hill N of gold hill at coast, warrior started.

2350BC(36)

Shanghai builds worker, start barracks.

2310BC(37)

Bronze Working researched, start Writing at 90%. Lux tax raised to 10% for a couple of turns until settler is complete. Warrior S of York choke spots hut.

2270BC(38)

Got maps from the friendly village - it shows a lot of furs immediately S of Beijing and also a southern coastline.

2230BC(39)

Beijing completes settler, start spear. settler heads with escort to wheat lake near York choke to stop English expansion.

2190BC(40)

Canton completes warrior, start worker. Warrior in N reaches American border. India has a worker for sale but can't afford him anyway.

2150BC(41)

Barb appears on spice NW of Shanghai.

2110BC(42)



2070BC(43)

Barb loses to warrior in Shanghai. Nanking founded on plains near York, start spear.

2030BC(44)

Shanghai completes barracks, start spear. Another barb appears near Shanghai.

1990BC(45)

Beijing completes spear, start temple. Canton completes worker, start temple. Other civs must have Map Making, maps are on the table, hold off for now.

1950BC(46)

Writing researched, start Code of Laws at full science hopefully for barter. Barb loses at Shanghai, will move for camp in a couple of turns when the spear is closer to completion.

1910BC(47)

Warrior leaves Shanghai to seek out barb camp.

1870BC(48)



1830BC(49)

Shanghai completes spear, start worker. Warrior spots barb camp.

1790BC(50)

Warrior in position for attacking barb camp next turn.

1750BC(51)

Shanghai completes worker, start temple. Warrior defeats barb at camp and pockets 25g. The civs with MM will trade IW but require a WM as part of the deal. Since all are expansionist I decline for now. Zulu, England and America all have IW, MM and Polytheism. India only has IW.

1725BC(52)

Worker clears forest outside Beijing. Switch production from temple to granary, due in 3.

1700BC(53)

Nanking completes spear, start temple. Healed warrior from barb camp heads for blockade duty in N choke point.

1675BC(54)

Beijing completes granary, start settler. Worker starts to road to horses and next city site. 3 warriors now at western shore of continent.

1650BC(55)

Warrior fortifies at N choke. COL in 1 - no one has it yet.

1625BC(56)

Code of Laws researched, Maths started. England has COL! Trade rounds commence. India gives Map Making for COL + 13g, America IW + TM + 9g for COL, Zulu Polytheism for COL + 28g. Go back to Ghandi and trade him Polytheism for WM + 42g. Now level in tech with everyone. Iron in 3 places nearby. Establish embassy with England.

1600BC(57)

Barb approaches from S at horses just as a worker finishes road. Move him out of harm's way and prepare to intercept with troops from Beijing next turn when settler is due. Zulu got Maths already, no trade possible. Take a 1-turn research hit and go for Philosophy, due in 5.

1575BC(58)

Beijing completes settler, start spear. Settler/spear pair head towards E coast near horses, spotting barb on the way. Will come back for him later.

1550BC(59)

England building the Oracle. Move spear out of Nanking to face barb . Noticed India had a worker up for grabs and decided to do the rounds with maps to raise some cash as well. Maps reveal barb camps too. Establish embassy in Washington with cash.

1525BC(60)

Spear defends v barb and promotes to vet. Disperse barb camp in far W for 25g. Scouting warriors start to head homewards. Still level in tech with all but the Zulu, Phil due in 3.


And here are the saves....



zenga 2190bc


zenga 1790bc


zenga 1525bc

Thanks for filling in on such short notice, Zenga.

This will help keep our data table full across the planned 12 players perspectives.

I'll download you right away and update things to see where fate places you in scheme of things.

Good luck in the game,

Barb Action

The barbs did cost me something. Remember the turn after my ganary was finished, a barb warrior showed up on my borders. Well, even with a regular warrior already in my capital, I didn't feel safe enough, so I spent two turns building another warrior when normally I would have started cranking settlers. I felt that I couldn't take the risk of having my capital sacked so early. Better safe than sorry, that's my style . The cost was delaying all subsequent settler building (thus city founding) by one turn (I would still have arranged my capital to go on a size 5-7 cycle, so it would have taken 5 turns to build my first settler). It could be significant down the line. We'll see.

Other than that, there were also some minor cases where my scouting warriors were forced to detour because of barbs, costing perhaps a few gold during the map purchase. Of course that's just a small one-time cost. It can be easily ignored. That all the hidden barb cost that I could find from my game.


Happiness and Commerce

Great graphs, on both the barb and the happiness topics. How much time did you guys spend on those darn things? Did you have to look through the games and the reports one by one?

Anyhow, here's my question: is efficiency (the income/commerce ratio) really important in the early going? At this stage, most of the "inefficiency" comes from corruption. Corruption stems from having a large empire as a result of a successful expansion. And, if the sizes of the empires are the same, corruption is rather an indication of the expansion style of the player. An outside-in style of expansion is going to create more corruption at this stage than a player who fills out the closer city sites first. At least among the peaceniks, I would expect there to be an inverse relationship between the populations scores and the efficiency rating. As for the warmongers, HA, now there is a group of creatures that I just don't understand

Efficiency

SJ: You are right that most of the inefficiency comes from corruption at this point. However, if you compare Hotrod's 12 pop to my 13, it is obvious Hotrod is doing something better, in term of commerce. His population is spead out more evenly, allowing him to operate at 0% luxury tax. My population is concentrated, forcing me to use 20% luxury tax. The net result is that Hotrod is making more commerce per turn while I have a city producing many more shields per turn than is best city. More commerce translates into more golds or faster research. More shields may or may not serve a purpose. If it doesn't serve a purpose, I am converting useful commerce in wasted shields, loosing ground on the space ship race. If it does serve a purpose, the shield investment will result in a faster pace up the tech tree and put me ahead in the race.

In the upcoming rounds, various people will choose different methods to deal with happiness, they will choose (hopefully) different government and the efficiency factor should reveal some interesting facts.

Hopefully, the warmongers will be shown the error of their ways.

I believe I'm late with this turn. If anyone's been roped in to take my place, I understand and am happy to continue playing as a shadow. Anyway, on with the turn...

Theos's turns 31-40
(31) 2550 BC - Four warriors continue to scout. Worker starts road to Shanghai. Taxes to 2.8.0 for 7 turn tech/+1gpt. Beijing Settler->Warrior.
(32) 2510 BC - A wheat square near England territory is too good to pass up. Settler heads for it before English claim it.
(33) 2470 BC - Meet India. We have The Wheel up on them (and hence Horseback Riding), while they have Bronze Working, Alphabet and Ceremonial Burial. Trade with India - I give The Wheel+Horseback Riding+4g for Ceremonial Burial+Bronze Working.
(34) 2430 BC - Meet American scout. Comparative techs, all nations up on us by: India-Alphabet; America-Alphabet+Iron Working; Egypt,England-Alphabet+Writing+Iron Working.
(35) 2390 BC - Found Canton S-S-S-W of Beijing, between two wheat squares, adjacent to a lake and river, on bonus grassland unfortunately. Starts Temple. Beijing Warrior->Settler.
(36) 2350 BC - Warrior just trained heads off to garrison Canton.
(37) 2310 BC - Taxes to 5.5.0 for this turn tech. Discover Alphabet->Iron Working (placeholder as I've a hut to pop next turn).
(38) 2270 BC - Warrior in the south pops goody hut for Writing. Yes! Change research to Literature at max sci for 13 turns.
(39) 2230 BC - Warrior starts discovering the furs down south.
(40) 2190 BC - Taxes to 0.9.1 to keep Beijing happy. Beijing Settler->Warrior.
2190 BC Savegame

Theos's turns 41-50
(41) 2150 BC - Shanghai switches to Pyramids as a placeholder for the Great Library. Settler heads west of Beijing to block off English settlement. Worker starts irrigating cattle tile by Shanghai.
(42) 2110 BC - Taxes back to max sci as I forgot last turn. Warrior leaves Beijing for Shanghai to help against barbarian.
(43) 2070 BC - Garrisoned warrior at Shanghai attacks and defeats barbarian. The barbarian camp is spotted by northern warrior-scout.
(44) 2030 BC - Worker starts road+mines for bonus grassland south of Shanghai. Found Nanking W-W-W-S of Beijing, just by gold hill, bringing wheat into range by linking of cultural borders. Starts Warrior. Canton switches to Granary. Beijing Warrior->Settler.
(45) 1990 BC - Barbarian camp dispersed for 25 gold.
(46) 1950 BC -
(47) 1910 BC -
(48) 1870 BC - Horses found just south-east of Beijing. Taxes to 5.5.0 for this turn tech. Discover Literature->Map Making. Nanking Warrior->Worker.
(49) 1830 BC - Taxes to min sci (8.1.1) for 40 turn Map Making. Beijing Settler->Warrior.
(50) 1790 BC - Settler moves south east to claim horses, extra warrior at Shanghai moving to the same site. Worker starts mine+road for bonus grassland north of Shanghai. Tech to a min sci 9.1.0.
1790 BC Savegame

Theos's turns 51-60
(51) 1750 BC -
(52) 1725 BC - Taxes to 8.1.1 for a grown Shanghai (now size 5). Beijing Warrior->Settler.
(53) 1700 BC - Found Tsingtao by horses. Starts barracks as prelude to being the first with horses linked up. I remember now to switch Shanghai to Great Library. Nanking Worker->Temple as it will clash borders with York and I want to have the cultural upperhand.
(54) 1675 BC - Worker starts road from Nanking to Beijing.
(55) 1650 BC - Barbarians appear west of Shanghai. Extra warrior from Beijing heads up to help.
(56) 1625 BC - Worker starts mine+road on grassland NE of Shanghai.
(57) 1600 BC - Taxes to 6.1.3 to stave off disorder in Shanghai (now size 6). Warrior heads out to find barbarian camp.
(58) 1575 BC - Beijing Settler->Warrior. Canton Granary->Settler. English start the Oracle. We are the happiest nation in the world. English found a city due to cover 3 furs.
(59) 1550 BC - Coastal river spot still available for us that covers 2 furs and a fish. New settler heads off for that spot. Indians start the Oracle.
(60) 1525 BC - Worker moves to build road linking Beijing to Canton. I am way behind in tech now, but I'm holding out for Great Library. Taxes to 7.0.3.
1525 BC Savegame

Cracker and all, since we are in the discussion period now before we start the third round, I wanted to enter the conversation.

I notice in the last graph that Cracker made (1525bc) I am at the bottom of just about everything. What am I doing wrong that is holding me back? I would welcome any suggestions.

I'm trying to get some clues from the graph on just what I need to work on.

I'm hanging in there, but I want to get better. Would appreciate any help.

stwils

Originally posted by stwils
Cracker and all, since we are in the discussion period now before we start the third round, I wanted to enter the conversation.

I notice in the last graph that Cracker made (1525bc) I am at the bottom of just about everything. What am I doing wrong that is holding me back? I would welcome any suggestions.

I'm trying to get some clues from the graph on just what I need to work on.

I'm hanging in there, but I want to get better. Would appreciate any help.

stwils

Click to expand...

Your issue isn't as simple to spot from graphs, as one person was in the HandyAndy game - that player was critically short of workers.

However, I see some things clearly wrong.
1) NEVER run entertainers in the capital. This also implies that you got the city riot message losing a full turn.
2) I don’t see any exploring units - this is why Cracker is off the scale in power, sheer number of contacts.
Contacts = potential tech trading, as if you are behind in tech - cheaper costs to buy / research.
3) As of 1525BC I have 7 cities, while you have 3. You are building a temple in the capital? That is *2* settlers not built! That is why you expansion phase is so far behind.
4) Shanghai should have been built around where England built Canterbury - BONUS food resource of cattle given to England.

=============================
@Cracker - How did the value of embassies get set at 30? I am penalized on the scoring system by establishing the embassies, as I spent more then $30 in cash to get them.

Lee, thanks for taking a look at my game.

I just downloaded your 1525bc save and I was struck by how many cities you have built (7) as opposed to my 3. And I also saw that your entire map of the island was visable - I could see all the other civs on the island.If you look at my game, only my cities are visable. Everything else is dark. How did you achieve that? Map trading or exploring?

You said that you didn't see any exploring units in my game. I used a few warriors to explore. I'm not sure what "exploring units" you meant I should have. Most of the time I felt my warriors were just wandering around...

As far as my building a temple in my capital, is that a no no, or were you saying I should have been building settlers instead?

I could not believe the difference in your save and mine, and we had the same number of turns.

And yes, I had a city in disorder emitting lots of smoke. (That's why I stuck that entertainer in there. Was there a better way to have handled it?)

Thanks again for taking the time to talk about my game and pointing out some things for me to think about.

stwils

Cracker:

Thanks for updating the graphs. I noticed that I got credit for only 45 research points for my 40 turn effort towards Math. I don't think that is the accurate value assessment for 40 turn researches. Since I will get math in 3 turns, the actual value of the total research put-in should be 37/40 of the total value of Math. 40 turn research is a way to create value out of nothing, I think the scoring formula should reflect that. A possible formula that I can come up with is MAX( total science in progress, value of tech * ( turns into research / 40 ) ).


stwils:

An early game habit that I got into is to press F1 before ending every single turn. On the F1 screen, I can quickly skim through my cities' happiness situations. And if any one of them needs help, I adjust the Lux rate right on that screen. The whole process should take no more than 10 seconds per turn, but it saves me from any potential rioting, and from having to remember which city might riot


JaxomCA:

thx for the reply

I didn't have map making yet. If you compare my first 3 turns, you should get an idea how I learned the map. I didn't have map making at that time. Look at where my warriors are.

The capital city advantage is FOOD. That means pump out settlers like crazy.
A temple gains 2 things -
1) Less happy problems, luxuries / luxury tax does the same
2) Control of all 21 squares for the city - NOT need for any capital city.

Early in the game - LUXURY TAX - this is far better the entertainers except in fringe 1/1 cities. This is one of the major AI weakness - entertainers, the human advantage is luxury tax. That clown slows down the capital growth - defeating its major plus - food.

SJF: I will make a note of your additional warriors (instead of settlers), I will also add Theos data to the graphics.

Yep I did skim through all the reports, but I was only looking for barb information. If it wasn't there I didn't include it. . If I did make a mistake let me know and I will rectify it now before we move on to the next round.

It will be interesting to see how the barb activity goes at the era change. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't that when uprisings occur.

Hotrod

@ SJF thanks it took some time but only a fraction I am sure of what cracker has put in .

SJFrank,
I didn't know about the f1 thing. Thanks. You say do it at the end of every turn? I'll try it. Catch things before they blow up.

Lee,
I have never done much with the luxury slider thing. But it sounds like it is better than doing the entertainer and waiting for a temple in my capitol instead of pumping out settlers.

I need to ask you. You mentioned I should look at your first 3 turns. Which set of turns did you mean? I can go back and read your log if you will tell me which year I should go back to. Yes, I really would like to know how you illuminated the whole island.

stwils

Check out this thread -

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=622184#post622184

I was suggesting to download the 3 turns, and get a general idea how my warriors exposed the map.

Originally posted by SJ Frank
Cracker:

... I noticed that I got credit for only 45 research points for my 40 turn effort towards Math. I don't think that is the accurate value assessment for 40 turn researches. Since I will get math in 3 turns, the actual value of the total research put-in should be 37/40 of the total value of Math. 40 turn research is a way to create value out of nothing, I think the scoring formula should reflect that. A possible formula that I can come up with is MAX( total science in progress, value of tech * ( turns into research / 40 ) ).

Click to expand...

Yes, the 40 turn science gambit has been discussed in some detail and it is a way to potentially get something for what may seem like nothing. What we have chosen to do in the scoring is recognize this is 'a substantial penalty for early withdrawal" type thing. You technically are getting more benefit than just the 45 power points of partial research because all the extra cash you have redirected or all the extra citizen work assignments that you have trageted to food or shields instead of gold will be showing up in other forms of power for your civ.

You only get the benefit of the gambit when you get the tech and not partially before. You have to compare this strategy choice to the player that really researches the tech at full pace and actually has 37/40ths of the coins invested. This player gains incremental benefits of increased trading leverage that you do not have in the min/40 gambit plus this player has other cash investment risks that preclude tech swapping even at early turns in the research.

Another example is the Great Library Gambit. A player that totslly shuts down research and pours shields into the Great Library should not get a scoring benefit for 50% of the techs that will come out of the Great Library just because they have 50% of the shields invested in the Great Library.

Lee,

Here's a link to some discussion of the Embassy 30 point score issue:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31311

The cost of an embassy is mostly distance related but you can recapture some of the embassy cost through selling ROPS and/or trading on your enhanced good name. The ability to sell a ROP based on the territory ratio of your civ to your neighbors creates a cash source that can usually offset some of the embassy costs.

The general thought process is that all embassies cost more than 30 coins but that the 30 point value plus the enhanced trade and defense aspects will offset usually still let you make a power point profit if you play carefully.

Originally posted by cracker
You have to compare this strategy choice to the player that really researches the tech at full pace and actually has 37/40ths of the coins invested. This player gains incremental benefits of increased trading leverage that you do not have in the min/40 gambit plus this player has other cash investment risks that preclude tech swapping even at early turns in the research.

Click to expand...

Yep, I completely forgot about the trading aspect of the situation.

Since this has already been discussed in detail, there will be no further arguements from me.

It's rather interesting that running a qs game in the sg forum forces you to revisit some old issues.

Lee, I looked at your first 3 main turns. You popped the risky goodie hut and got CB right off. I did the same, barbs came out, and my warrior and worker were demolished and half the town's gold taken. At that point I asked to start over.

And your other 2 huts produced.

I wonder what it would have been like for me if I had gotten CB instead of barbs. And even after starting over I was leery of that hut, and finally after waltzing around it, later popped it when I had two warriors there - and you know what - 3 barbs still came out.

I'm not saying your success against my attempts are solely grounded in that popping and getting CB.

You are a much better player than I. Hands down. And I hope to learn a lot about playing from this game with 12 of us.

So did your warriors explore the whole island? I still can't figure out how the map was all revealed. My warrior seemed to go north to the coast and I did not find the Americans or the Zulus. Finally the English intruded their way on the scene and I saw a bit of them.

I still don't understand how you were able to get the whole island illuminated.

I really enjoyed looking at your last save. Comparing your save to mine shows me I have a long way to go.

stwils

The best answer I can give - look how far away some of my warriors are from Beijing.