[MOD] Fall from Heaven II

My understanding ist that there is a known bug with the placement of marauders when they turn against you - basically the logic for calculating where to place the turncoat sees units occupied by your troops as 'friendly' and may randomly place the marauder there - if it does, your stack gets removed. Understand this is a pending fix - for now, I either keep my marauders more than a square away or save often (play as arcane so lots of summonging going on).
 
does the Armageddon wonders working now? I have constructed all of them and only Blight seems working (pretty weak effect I must say, I've lost one-two population in every city, my druids restored deserts back to grass, thats all)
 
dunno if anyone would agree, but it seems to me that it would be a nice flavour/strategy addition if mud golems were combat units, so they didn't have too much to fear from barbarians.

dunno. they're golems, after all.
 
Lightzy said:
dunno if anyone would agree, but it seems to me that it would be a nice flavour/strategy addition if mud golems were combat units, so they didn't have too much to fear from barbarians.

dunno. they're golems, after all.


I agree that a worker Golem should be able to defend itself. I also think that your basic 1st worker unit being able to defend itself does seem a bit overpowered to me, but if you think that mud is not a very good substance to work with then it can be attacked by anything, it would even get all cracked depending on the weather conditions

This is what I wrote in another thread
chocmushroom said:
So, maybe there should be a Clay Golem. This would do as above, work at a faster pace than normal, but they would also be able to defend themselves. I mean, how many wolves would attack and hurt something made of clay, compared to them fleshy human workers.
So, a clay golem could be avalible after a certain tech, it would be a 2 power creature which cannot attack and build's improvements at double (or 1/3 faster) speed. ........Or, maybe have power 1 or 2 and have +150% vs animals. An axe weilding orc can damage a bit of clay, but why would a tiger even think of attacking them.

It makes sense to me.
 
Well, since I posted in the Design a Winder Poll thread, I guess I might as well give some feedback...

Before I upgraded to 0.13d (I think I was playing 0.12b or something, but I can't remember clearly), I played a game with the Lanun (Falamar) and got Octopus Overlords as my state religion. The game went fine, but I should mention that I was a bit dissapointed to find little synergy between the OO and my sea domination strategy. Drowns may give some sort of a head start towards conquering nearby isles, but they quickly get outdated by tier 3 units (which I feel become available a bit too early, but then again the tech tree has been modified since, so I guess this criticism is no more relevant). And I never got a chance to try invoking that Kraken thing, because I could never get a cultist become a high priest (partly my fault, it took me a while before I could lay my tentaculous hands on some incense, and by that time I was already on a good way towards domination and I kept burning cultists + disciples to make newly conquered cities working fast... damn, this technique is really effective for fast conquests !). In the end, playing Overlords was greatly satisfying for itself, and I sure made great use of Lunatics, slavery and all, but I was hoping for a better experience when playing it with the Lanun... in fact, it was even partly counter-productive because I actually ended up with two Water Mana ressources (one for the palace, and one for the OO shrine) which I could only trade for money since no AI would have spare Mana Ressources of any type...

Anyway, this said, the Lalun clearly rock ! I loved those unique pirate ships, and boarding parties are very nice gameplay-wise. I felt the Raider trait maybe was a bit powerful, but it seems that it has been slightly softened in 0.13d (or will be in 0.14, I'm not sure I remember well, and anyway you should know better than me) so I guess this is not an issue. And OO is great too, although I feel it is not as water-oriented as its description and place in the tech tree would suggest (unless I'm missing something).

On a side note, I poudered this a lot, and finally didn't dare build any of their "special temples", or whatever you name them. It wasn't clear from reading the pedia what benefits they would give me if I did, and losing trade routes clearly sounds bad to me, especially in large cities. Besides, one of the buildings' description mentionned something like -1 trade route for each costal cities... which makes me wonder : "what if I build several of these ? Do they add up ? Hey, I'm a Seafaring civ... I actually have A LOT of coastal cities, and I'm not sure I want to penalize them !"


Now, I've upgraded to 0.13d last week and began a new game with the Balseraph. I was actively trying to go for the Veil, but the map configuration really made me go for fishing and sailing, so I ended up founding OO again... later on I founded the Veil too (most AIs in this game are going neutral of good... even Alexis appears to have turned Neutral when he was converted to Leaves :(), but I found that I was relunctant to shift because I had already began expanding OO to my cities, and doing it all again for the Veil would have a huge cost (worse yet, the Order has began spreading to some of my cities, so I'm afraid I'll have trouble spreading the Veil there). It seems right to make the choice of state religion important, but then again shifting to another religion may become really hard once you have began to invest on it. I know you are already aware of this, and maybe it's all just the way the mod should work, but thought I should just mention that I actually ran into it...

Oh, by the way, I love the new tech tree... it will take a while for me to get used to it and build up effective strategies, but I really like the orientation it takes. Splitting up a lot makes each decision more important, and this is what makes Civ interesting in my opinion (that was already what made me like Civ4 a lot more than its predecessors).



Anyway, congratulations for this mod... the result is awesome, and I keep getting impressed with each release. Thanks to the team, I'm sure you should be really proud of yourselves.:goodjob:
 
1. I understand that the Grigori can't adopt state religions and that thier cities resists religious spread due to being agnostic. But why can't the Grigori build a temple for a religion thats spread to thier city?

2. I've noticed a neutral player turn good (rhoanna) and a evil player turn neutral (alexis). How do you change alignment?
 
Hi,

The first time i play a game like my last one. Orthus and his troops wiped 5 of the 7 ai civs in 128 turns on a Pangea large prince map ! :eek: After nearly 200 turns, i was permanently invade by 6 to 10 orc spearmen and gob each turn.:eek: As you can think most of my warriors were very experienced. :D Finally, despite a strong and bloody fight, i was also wiped when Lizardmen were thown into battles....and Orthus was still alive :cry: :( Fun !:lol:

Conclusion: Is Orthus too strong ? Does he came too early ? I don't know. But Orthus usually wipe one civ in most of my game on Pangea large prince map.

The Frog.
 
I took a standard map and added a peninsula that went well out into the ocean. On it I placed the Black Dragon as a Barbarian unit. I didn't see the havoc he gave the civ nearest the peninsula, but sure enough before long I felt like I was in a Godzilla movie. He destroyed three of my five cities before I finally brought him down. It's turned the typical early-mid stage of crazed barbians into an interesting twist. Getting him out away from things to start allowed us to get our civs along to a point to have a chance, but it certainly felt like a rampaging hurricane or maybe more like a wild fire with my rangers trying to put it out as he gobbled up my drowns. :)
 
Hian the Frog said:
Hi,

The first time i play a game like my last one. Orthus and his troops wiped 5 of the 7 ai civs in 128 turns on a Pangea large prince map ! :eek: After nearly 200 turns, i was permanently invade by 6 to 10 orc spearmen and gob each turn.:eek: As you can think most of my warriors were very experienced. :D Finally, despite a strong and bloody fight, i was also wiped when Lizardmen were thown into battles....and Orthus was still alive :cry: :( Fun !:lol:

Conclusion: Is Orthus too strong ? Does he came too early ? I don't know. But Orthus usually wipe one civ in most of my game on Pangea large prince map.

The Frog.
In my current game, he seemed to appear a little before turn 90, but for whatever reason, he did not invade my city radius, preferring to stalk around just to the northwest. This allowed me some time to prepare. I also got lucky in that I got a tech advance from a village, allowing me to upgrade some good hunters into rangers.

The key thing though is that as of turn 105, he had not invaded me. I went and got him. Design or luck, I do not know.

Personally, I love the wildcard he adds to the game in single player.
 
adamant said:
My understanding ist that there is a known bug with the placement of marauders when they turn against you - basically the logic for calculating where to place the turncoat sees units occupied by your troops as 'friendly' and may randomly place the marauder there - if it does, your stack gets removed. Understand this is a pending fix - for now, I either keep my marauders more than a square away or save often (play as arcane so lots of summonging going on).

You are correct, they are fixed in 0.14.
 
Antigone said:
does the Armageddon wonders working now? I have constructed all of them and only Blight seems working (pretty weak effect I must say, I've lost one-two population in every city, my druids restored deserts back to grass, thats all)

As far as I know they all do. I would love to have a save game right before one goes off of it not working.
 
Lightzy said:
dunno if anyone would agree, but it seems to me that it would be a nice flavour/strategy addition if mud golems were combat units, so they didn't have too much to fear from barbarians.

dunno. they're golems, after all.

Yeah, this was origionally the design. The problem is if we make them combat units the AI gets really bad about using them. It will start using them in war (worker starving itself) and not protect them properly. So we had to put them back to non-combat units.
 
SchpailsMan said:
Well, since I posted in the Design a Winder Poll thread, I guess I might as well give some feedback...

Before I upgraded to 0.13d (I think I was playing 0.12b or something, but I can't remember clearly), I played a game with the Lanun (Falamar) and got Octopus Overlords as my state religion. The game went fine, but I should mention that I was a bit dissapointed to find little synergy between the OO and my sea domination strategy. Drowns may give some sort of a head start towards conquering nearby isles, but they quickly get outdated by tier 3 units (which I feel become available a bit too early, but then again the tech tree has been modified since, so I guess this criticism is no more relevant). And I never got a chance to try invoking that Kraken thing, because I could never get a cultist become a high priest (partly my fault, it took me a while before I could lay my tentaculous hands on some incense, and by that time I was already on a good way towards domination and I kept burning cultists + disciples to make newly conquered cities working fast... damn, this technique is really effective for fast conquests !). In the end, playing Overlords was greatly satisfying for itself, and I sure made great use of Lunatics, slavery and all, but I was hoping for a better experience when playing it with the Lanun... in fact, it was even partly counter-productive because I actually ended up with two Water Mana ressources (one for the palace, and one for the OO shrine) which I could only trade for money since no AI would have spare Mana Ressources of any type...

The synergy between the two in the early game comes form the drown (hopefully they remain useful to you a little longer in 0.13 and beyond with the new tech tree) and in the late game with the kraken. The kraken may be underpowered and may need to become invisible to truely come into their own (still under consideeration).

But a lanan/OO strategy should make you the undisputed ruler of the seas.

I agree that the AI needs to be more open to trading mana for mana so that these extras can be put to use. But in general the 2 water mana is the cost of specialization, where we have synergy we also have to even out those benifits so that they dont become to effective. The double mana is the natural balance of that cost. The same is felt for Fellowship/Ljosalfar who can have incredible forest empires but sacrifice some of their flexibility for their increased specialization.

Anyway, this said, the Lalun clearly rock ! I loved those unique pirate ships, and boarding parties are very nice gameplay-wise. I felt the Raider trait maybe was a bit powerful, but it seems that it has been slightly softened in 0.13d (or will be in 0.14, I'm not sure I remember well, and anyway you should know better than me) so I guess this is not an issue. And OO is great too, although I feel it is not as water-oriented as its description and place in the tech tree would suggest (unless I'm missing something).

On a side note, I poudered this a lot, and finally didn't dare build any of their "special temples", or whatever you name them. It wasn't clear from reading the pedia what benefits they would give me if I did, and losing trade routes clearly sounds bad to me, especially in large cities. Besides, one of the buildings' description mentionned something like -1 trade route for each costal cities... which makes me wonder : "what if I build several of these ? Do they add up ? Hey, I'm a Seafaring civ... I actually have A LOT of coastal cities, and I'm not sure I want to penalize them !"

All of the advanced temples are cut in 0.14. They just werent working out and rather than boost them all to make them worthwhile we removed them and scattered the abilities we liked to other buildings (the temple of leaves now grants triple the chance of generating treants int he surrounding tiles, the temple of the order now doubles the amount of units gained form the recruit spell, etc).

Now, I've upgraded to 0.13d last week and began a new game with the Balseraph. I was actively trying to go for the Veil, but the map configuration really made me go for fishing and sailing, so I ended up founding OO again... later on I founded the Veil too (most AIs in this game are going neutral of good... even Alexis appears to have turned Neutral when he was converted to Leaves :(), but I found that I was relunctant to shift because I had already began expanding OO to my cities, and doing it all again for the Veil would have a huge cost (worse yet, the Order has began spreading to some of my cities, so I'm afraid I'll have trouble spreading the Veil there). It seems right to make the choice of state religion important, but then again shifting to another religion may become really hard once you have began to invest on it. I know you are already aware of this, and maybe it's all just the way the mod should work, but thought I should just mention that I actually ran into it...

Yeap, thats all intentional. I want players to be able to play any civ/religion combo but I dont want them to be able to be able to change religions easily. FfH requires a lot more forplanning than vanilla civ. The choices made effect the game for longer and lead to other options which get harder and harder to back away from.

I dont want to keep players from backing out of their strategy, they should be able to switch, but it should require significant effort.

The same system is followed when you consider sorcery vs summoning. You have those first few adepts that are high enough level to promote to mages or conjurers. Which of the 2 techs you research first will most likely decide where those adepts go (and the starting spheres you decided to give those adepts) and lead you down a path of being stronger in one area or the other.

Oh, by the way, I love the new tech tree... it will take a while for me to get used to it and build up effective strategies, but I really like the orientation it takes. Splitting up a lot makes each decision more important, and this is what makes Civ interesting in my opinion (that was already what made me like Civ4 a lot more than its predecessors).

Anyway, congratulations for this mod... the result is awesome, and I keep getting impressed with each release. Thanks to the team, I'm sure you should be really proud of yourselves.:goodjob:

Thats awesome feedback, keep it coming.
 
erm4gh said:
1. I understand that the Grigori can't adopt state religions and that thier cities resists religious spread due to being agnostic. But why can't the Grigori build a temple for a religion thats spread to thier city?

Any religious people in the Grigori would never advertise their religion openly.

2. I've noticed a neutral player turn good (rhoanna) and a evil player turn neutral (alexis). How do you change alignment?

By adopting a religion.

1. The Order will turn you Good.
2. Runes of Kilmorph will turn you neutral if you are evil.
3. Fellowship of Leaves doesn't effect your religion.
4. Octopus Overlords will turn you neutral if you are good.
5. The Ashen Veil will turn you evil.
 
Hian the Frog said:
Hi,

The first time i play a game like my last one. Orthus and his troops wiped 5 of the 7 ai civs in 128 turns on a Pangea large prince map ! :eek: After nearly 200 turns, i was permanently invade by 6 to 10 orc spearmen and gob each turn.:eek: As you can think most of my warriors were very experienced. :D Finally, despite a strong and bloody fight, i was also wiped when Lizardmen were thown into battles....and Orthus was still alive :cry: :( Fun !:lol:

Conclusion: Is Orthus too strong ? Does he came too early ? I don't know. But Orthus usually wipe one civ in most of my game on Pangea large prince map.

The Frog.

That probably a personal preference question. Orthus's starting turn can be adjusted with the editor. There is also a change in 0.14 so that his starting turn is adjusted by the game speed (on epic and marathon games he was coming way to early).

But overall I want Orthus to wipe civs and his appearance to be a major event for the game.
 
I'm playing as the Grigori & there are a few things that seem not to make real sense to me, given the Agnostic trait.

I assume that the Grigori are anti-religion, or at least anti-gods (both from the backstory & other snippets I've read in the various threads) then it would seem to follow that some of the "Civics" shouldn't be available to them, ie: "God King", "Religion", "Organized Religion", "Theocracy", "Religious Disipline" maybe others, but those stick in my mind. I don't know how much work it would be to have custom "Civics"for them,or if it's woth the effort. The thing is though that it may be a way to address some of the problems with the Grigori, hard to generate GPs, happiness without temples, Medic Promotions et al & go along way towards really differentiating{sp?} them.

Also I don't understand why they don't have Monks/Monasteries, which I tend to think of in a more eastern way, spiritual but not religious, than the western way.

Lastly, they should have some way of cleaning religions out of their cities (like Inquisitors,but not), if it's all going to hang together.

Anyhoo, just some thoughts, to use or not.

You guys are doing the most fantastic job on any mod for any civ that I've ever seen.(been playing since the very first one)

Thanx,

Fader
 
I agree with above, but mostly because they dont have much use from god king, religious discipline etc. because they can't have state religion, and I'm not sure if AI understands that. (In my last game Grigori were running Religion and God King) Maybe it would be tied to agnostic trait, and agnostic would decrease chance of religion spread.

On some croatian forums, FfH 2 was highly praised as best mod for civ4, that "they thought that FfH 1 was pushing civ4 to the limits, but apparently they were wrong"
:)
 
Fader55 said:
I'm playing as the Grigori & there are a few things that seem not to make real sense to me, given the Agnostic trait.

I assume that the Grigori are anti-religion, or at least anti-gods (both from the backstory & other snippets I've read in the various threads) then it would seem to follow that some of the "Civics" shouldn't be available to them, ie: "God King", "Religion", "Organized Religion", "Theocracy", "Religious Disipline" maybe others, but those stick in my mind. I don't know how much work it would be to have custom "Civics"for them,or if it's woth the effort. The thing is though that it may be a way to address some of the problems with the Grigori, hard to generate GPs, happiness without temples, Medic Promotions et al & go along way towards really differentiating{sp?} them.

The following is from the changelog for 0.14:

6. The Philosophical trait increased from +50% to +100% GPP.

8. The Adventurers Guild now gives +25% GPP.

Those should both help the Grigori with a GPP strategy.

As for the civics, since they give bonus's based on the state religion there isnt much reason for the Grigori to choose them. There are plenty of civic example that don't make much sense for specific civs, but we don't have different civic options for each of them.

Also I don't understand why they don't have Monks/Monasteries, which I tend to think of in a more eastern way, spiritual but not religious, than the western way.

Monks are only available to the Elohim in 0.14.

Lastly, they should have some way of cleaning religions out of their cities (like Inquisitors,but not), if it's all going to hang together.

Yeah, a Grigori Inquisitor is in the design docs, he just hasn't been added yet. They definitly need one.
 
Yes but for some reason AI still uses Religion and God King civics... So maybe all you need is AI tweak, no gameplay civic blockings?

So it is impossible to give mud golems icombat 2 but fool AI so that it wont use them in combat in any way, but if mud golems got attacked they would defend themselves?

One proposal: Could you allow great prophets to be able to create 2 different holy shrines for 1 religion, but only one in one game? So it would be alternative to advanced temples. In fact, I would like it to be fellowship special option. I liked that you can make them open society, happy people which protect nature, or mystical, secret nation closed to outsiders. So instead song of autumn, you choose between Golden woods and that mystical groove once you get Great Prophet, and of course only one shrine in that particular game. If other religions shrines remained same, it would be nice twist for FotL
 
TheJopa said:
Yes but for some reason AI still uses Religion and God King civics... So maybe all you need is AI tweak, no gameplay civic blockings?

Yeah, that could be done.

So it is impossible to give mud golems icombat 2 but fool AI so that it wont use them in combat in any way, but if mud golems got attacked they would defend themselves?

Nothing is impossible, but it is so much easier to just take away their combat ability. We have higher priority AI issues than this.

One proposal: Could you allow great prophets to be able to create 2 different holy shrines for 1 religion, but only one in one game? So it would be alternative to advanced temples. In fact, I would like it to be fellowship special option. I liked that you can make them open society, happy people which protect nature, or mystical, secret nation closed to outsiders. So instead song of autumn, you choose between Golden woods and that mystical groove once you get Great Prophet, and of course only one shrine in that particular game. If other religions shrines remained same, it would be nice twist for FotL

Yeap, definitly possible, let me think about it.
 
Top Bottom