New Leaders (art, personalities, diplomacy texts)

Which is fine, although I can admit that part of the reason I didn't like Arpad for the mod is because I have never been happy with his LHs.

If there is a quality problem with a leader, then of course don't add him/her.
Even if it's a hungarian one. I don't want to argue for adding more and more leaders for Hungary, that's not my goal. I want to argue for all the quality leaders of the modpack civs...
Of course I would like to see 3 or 4 hungarian leaders, because there are many great leaders in hungarian history, but just want to have any of them if the art for them is good enough.

On Arpad: I don't think the latest version of the Arpad LH is bad though. I also didn't like the previous versions (especially his clothes), but after cool3a2's improvements it's good for me (even for Diplomacy)
I have to admit though that I still like some parts of the original LH better (the current cape still doesn't look good IMO), but the original sash didn't fit an early hungarian leader that much.
He is still much better than most of Nitram's hungarian LHs, and also more important
 
If we are already talking about LHs here:
What's you opinion of adding Den9510's Sargon as a Babylonian leader?
You said the LH is good, just don't want to add him to Sumeria as the LH is based on Gilgamesh.
If you really like the art, that would be a good solution IMO
 
Well, what I'm thinking here is two things. The first problem I have with it is that the clothing on it looks relatively fake, like it is a costume rather than actual armor. Secondly, I tend to think that the depiction is more of a romanticised or at least a later and anochronistic version of Arpad. IIRC he is fround around the fifth or sixth century a.d. The armor he appears to be wearing looks like it is from at least three to four hundred years later than that. I could be mistaken, of course, since I am not an arms expert. But I have always thought that.

Conversely I think Nitram's latest Hungarian LH looks a bit closer to what I'd imagine Arpad to look like. I'm thinking perhaps with a bit more armor on he'd be nearly perfect for use as Arpad, but you are Hungarian, so you would probably know better than I would.
 
If we are already talking about LHs here:
What's you opinion of adding Den9510's Sargon as a Babylonian leader?
You said the LH is good, just don't want to add him to Sumeria as the LH is based on Gilgamesh. If you really like the art, this is a good solution IMO

I'd rather not add any more leaders to the base civs.
 
Well, what I'm thinking here is two things. The first problem I have with it is that the clothing on it looks relatively fake, like it is a costume rather than actual armor. Secondly, I tend to think that the depiction is more of a romanticised or at least a later and anochronistic version of Arpad. IIRC he is fround around the fifth or sixth century a.d. The armor he appears to be wearing looks like it is from at least three to four hundred years later than that. I could be mistaken, of course, since I am not an arms expert. But I have always thought that.

Conversely I think Nitram's latest Hungarian LH looks a bit closer to what I'd imagine Arpad to look like. I'm thinking perhaps with a bit more armor on he'd be nearly perfect for use as Arpad, but you are Hungarian, so you would probably know better than I would.

Arpad lived at the very end of the 9th century, he lead us here in the Carpathian basin in 895. So it's actually 3 or 4 hundred years later. That's why I said I can live with the way he is represented now. Altough you still have a point. The armor is still a little "modern", even if it's not that disturbing...

Adding Koppany (Nitram's latest LH) as Arpad is an interesting idea. Might work, as Koppany was following the old ways of the hungarians, that's why he got in conflict with St Stephen in the first place


EDIT: alright, Den's version of Sargon is out
EDIT2: maybe not? you can always add him to one of the similar modpacks civs too (Hittite or Assyria) :)
 
I just wanted to remind anyone who has worked on or is still working on leader personalities (mainly EdgeCrusher, Xyth, and cybrxkhan) and diplomacy text (MadmanOfALeader) that I am diong yet another leader update this time around. Theodora and Menelik II are the new leaders I need personalities and diplomacy texts for.
 
Menelik I already gave you.

Why Theodora?
 
Because Ekmek is making a new one and he taught me to make LHs, so I try to get as many of his LHs in my mod as possible. That's why.

We could use the LH and assign it to another leader, so as not to have a man and wife rule one civ.
 
Well, in CIII Theodora was the Byzantine leader (as to why, don't look at me). I don't remember if there was one in CI or CII.
 
We could use the LH and assign it to another leader, so as not to have a man and wife rule one civ.

I don't think the LH Ekmek makes to be Theodora would work as another leader
You just look at her, notice all the purple clothes, and you know it should be Theodora :)
 
Just make Theodora like Justinian, only a little less war-like and a little more cultural.

On the contrary, they can and should have totally different personalities
They don't even share a trait ,)
 
On the contrary, they can and should have totally different personalities
They don't even share a trait ,)

She shouldn't be that different beyond being more spiritually peaceful (and a bit more cultural), honestly. That's the problem I was pointing out with choosing two leaders that are married.
Maybe this Theodora could be one of the other Byzantine Theodoras? Or a different Byzantine ruler? We can still use the same LH, it's just kinda dumb to have both her -and- Justinian I. I mean you wouldn't have Franklin and Elenore Roosevelt leading America. Sure the latter had a big impact on the former's rule, and may have been more of our president than the former towards the end of the former's life, but the two are represented by the sole FDR.
For that reason I feel Justinian I -and- Theodora are already both represented by Justinian I, co-rulers as one leader. You wouldn't split up the Trung Sisters just to give Vietnam two leaders.
 
She shouldn't be that different beyond being more spiritually peaceful (and a bit more cultural), honestly. That's the problem I was pointing out with choosing two leaders that are married.
Maybe this Theodora could be one of the other Byzantine Theodoras? Or a different Byzantine ruler? We can still use the same LH, it's just kinda dumb to have both her -and- Justinian I. I mean you wouldn't have Franklin and Elenore Roosevelt leading America. Sure the latter had a big impact on the former's rule, and may have been more of our president than the former towards the end of the former's life, but the two are represented by the sole FDR.
For that reason I feel Justinian I -and- Theodora are already both represented by Justinian I, co-rulers as one leader. You wouldn't split up the Trung Sisters just to give Vietnam two leaders.

This is a very good point.

For now I won't add Theodora.
 
There are two actual empresses of Byzantium named Theodora: Theodora the Macedonian and Theodora the Isaurian. In addition, there was an empress who reigned for a long time named Zoe. You could try using Ekmek's Theodora as one of them.
 
There are two actual empresses of Byzantium named Theodora: Theodora the Macedonian and Theodora the Isaurian. In addition, there was an empress who reigned for a long time named Zoe. You could try using Ekmek's Theodora as one of them.

Theodora the Macedonian might be hard because she only ruled for one year. Zoe Porphyrogenita ruled for one month. Zoe Karbonopsina ruled for... six years and didn't do that much besides fight Bulgarians.

My suggestion?
Use his new Theodora to make the Byzantine ruler Irene of Athens.

Sadly, even she's... not all that notable. She'd be Pro/Spi and she'd focus on managing a small, spiritual empire that doesn't like giving into demands, builds a lot of culture, and defends her nation.

It's the problem with trying to fit in female leaders for some civs, I guess. If they had them, chances are they didn't do much beyond be married to the actual ruler. If they -did- do anything, it's hard to tell if they did it because technically they aren't the ruler and won't get credited.
Which kinda forces you into a position where you have to cheat (Cleopatra... I'm sorry but no), throw in leaders that accomplished very little or may not have even existed (Hatshepsut, Jingu, Wu), or were at least married to someone that -was- extremely notable (Wu again.)

I support adding in more female leaders, I just think one should focus on thinking of really notable female leaders first. More Golda Meiers and Benazir Bhuttos, less Cleopatras and Jingus.
 
I understand, but the mod is also there to be fun. A lot of people like Theodora and she was in CivIII. I know she was Justinian's wife, but I think her allure, history in the game, and the great work Ekmek will provide us with (as well as our discussion about her traits and all of that), will all pretty much explain it. Sure she ruled with Justinian, and yeah he was definitely more important than her I just think it would be cool.

But again, we'll see, because I can't wait around for Ekmek forever.
 
Generally I agree with you TAdF, but for some female leaders we can overlook that because of their popularity. Not always, just where the leaders were significant enough
That's exactly the case for Theodora and Wu
They are well known, popular, Theodora were a vanilla leader in Civ III, Wu will be in Civ V, that's more than enough in my eyes.
So Capo, if you add them it will be a good advertisement for you mod. Also, most players like to see as much good female leaders ingame as possible. And because Ekmek making both those two, this is a guarantee for that...

Btw, we can and should make Theodora and Justinian distinct enough to have very different experience for the player. Both when playing against and when playing with them.
They were married and co-ruled, yes, but this doesn't mean they agreed to rule the same way all the time. Their personality was very different, and fortunately we can easily represent this in the game


EDIT: didn't see Capo's post, but it seems we mostly agree on this one :goodjob:
 
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