Opening build: Liberty NC Expand [G&K]

The Pilgrim said:

It's not as much as what you get through GL, but more what you don't get by building it.

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I completely agree. You need to choose if you want to try to build GL or you prefer build archers/settlers/workers/other stuff instead.

The Pilgrim said:

You are likely to finish NC sooner with 2 Liberty cities but launch the spaceship sooner with 4 cities Tradition start.

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It is very probable, but depends on many other factors.

The Pilgrim said:

Thus even if we take a hypothetical situation where we're guaranteed to get GL on these levels, I won't automatically go for it. Only if the start is suitable, because wasting lots of turns this early on wonder isn't worth it.

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I agree with that, but I wouldn't say wasting if you get GL

Unresolved said:

Turn 35-40 on average sounds too fast for Emperor. That's more of the Immortal range for AI GL.

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Not saying it's the average, just that it *can* sometimes go then, meaning if you want to *guarantee* it, you have to build it at or before turn 35, which is why I usually don't even bother trying. Plus I agree there are other needs for your hammers then.

futurehermit said:

The rush is simple: on emperor, the AI can and will, though not always, build the GL between turn 35-40.

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It can't and it won't. GL is built around 50-60 on emperor and it's more often 60 than 50.

Unresolved said:

Immortal I've seen range from 27 to 55. But on average, I'd say 35-40 is a pretty good estimate.

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Yup.

sufficiency said:

But the GL also gives you 3 science, 1 culture, and a great scientist point.

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And denies a settler, for example. I'll take additional early city that is actually capable of growing into megapolis than 1 GSP any day.

It is very probable, but depends on many other factors.

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The point is that getting NC as early as possible by itself is not what giving you the best head start.

I agree with that, but I wouldn't say wasting if you get GL

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It's a matter of costs vs. benefits. Depends on what you have to sacrifice. If it takes you 30 turns to build GL while your don't expand, don't improve extra luxes, don't buy additional workers, army, shrines, CS allies etc it doesn't matter whether you get it or not. You're not doing yourself any favors either way. On emperor you can afford sacrificing more, because despite the fact AI stars with some bonuses, you negate them by simply smarter tech path and by medieval era you're far ahead with GL or without it. On immoral+ you start way behind (initial worker makes a huge difference, not to mention all the rest of the freebies) and you have to catch up, which takes time and effort.
On immortal it's like: "I need this, this and this, so I carefully distribute a given limited amount of hammers between all my needs". While on emperor it's more like: "Hmmm... I have all these hammers... What do I want to do with them today?"
On deity, btw, it's: "OMG! Where the f* I'm gonna get the hammers to everything I need from?!"

futurehermit said:

Not saying it's the average, just that it *can* sometimes go then, meaning if you want to *guarantee* it, you have to build it at or before turn 35, which is why I usually don't even bother trying. Plus I agree there are other needs for your hammers then.

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Well, I'd estimate that chance by 0.1%, but, I guess, you're really a risk hater.

The Pilgrim said:

It can't and it won't. GL is built around 50-60 on emperor and it's more often 60 than 50.



Well, I'd estimate that chance by 0.1%, but, I guess, you're really a risk hater.

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I've played literally 100s of emperor starts (I prefer to start rather than finish games) and I can tell you definitively that the chance is higher than 0.1%

Sometimes it does go as late as 60, but it tends to go, on average, around turn 50. The problem is, when you assume it will go around turn 50, so you target between 45-50 and it ends up going on turn 41 or turn 38, etc.

The problem for me is that GL is nice, but you really have to be sure you want it because of what else you're giving up to build it. So, as a result, I want to make sure I get it.

But, yes, I also tend to be fairly risk-averse and don't like missing wonders when I plan for them

The Pilgrim said:

Are you talking about CV or in general?

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No. I like to do that just to finish Tradition faster in those cases where I open full tradition.

Edit: I am teching to philo anyway while its built in case it fails. But, I can pretty much smell when it will work and on immortal that's about 20%.

budweiser said:

No. I like to do that just to finish Tradition faster in those cases where I open full tradition.

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But this messes up the timing of Rationalism.

The Pilgrim said:

But this messes up the timing of Rationalism.

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Oh man. I never get that to come out even.

futurehermit said:

I've played literally 100s of emperor starts (I prefer to start rather than finish games) and I can tell you definitively that the chance is higher than 0.1%

Sometimes it does go as late as 60, but it tends to go, on average, around turn 50. The problem is, when you assume it will go around turn 50, so you target between 45-50 and it ends up going on turn 41 or turn 38, etc.

The problem for me is that GL is nice, but you really have to be sure you want it because of what else you're giving up to build it. So, as a result, I want to make sure I get it.

But, yes, I also tend to be fairly risk-averse and don't like missing wonders when I plan for them

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Fail gold on emperor is not such a fail after the patch. Besides, if the wonder goes much earlier than usual (which is roughly your target), you barely invested anything and you lose nothing. But by any mean I'm not going to advocate chasing after GL. That's a good thing you're not obsessed with it. Too many people are.

budweiser said:

Oh man. I never get that to come out even.

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Meaning?

The Pilgrim said:

Meaning?

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I mean I can never time it so that I have a policy pick come up the exact same turn that I enter renaissance so I can open 'the age of rationalism'.

1 'spare' policy between Tradition finisher and Rationalism opener is pretty standard. Don't you get 2 of them this way?

The Pilgrim said:

1 'spare' policy between Tradition finisher and Rationalism opener is pretty standard. Don't you get 2 of them this way?

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Yeah, I plan on 7 or 8 policies before Renaissance and the option to open Rationalism.

Edit: LOL see post 21.

budweiser said:

Yeah, I plan on 7 or 8 policies before Renaissance and the option to open Rationalism.

Edit: LOL see post 21.

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You bring your ideas to life much quicker than I do. I keep civ plans for months.

Lets think about Babylon or any civ in terms of 6+2 policies and then you open Renaissance. It doesn’t have to be a full tree.

If I weave Tradition and Liberty, can I close Liberty at or near when I open Renaissance? What do I do with my free GP? Or do I take full Tradition plus 2 other picks(aesthetics)?

Although it's sure to be nerfed eventually, I've grown fond of Tradition (or Liberty) then Patronage + Aesthetics (+ Pledge) and then into Rationalism. In that approach, the more early culture the better. I'll even take a cultural pantheon to speed things along. Perhaps not the fastest path to a science victory, but a much more robust empire from the CS benefits (assured maritime food in my capital to work specialists that much earlier (and keep growing), extra happiness from mercantiles for more frequent GAs, and culture from cultural CS friendships to slam through Rationalism that much faster). Absolutely deadly as Siam.

Be interesting to clock that approach versus the traditional "slow-walk culture until Renaissance and then boost the culture to motor through Rationalism" strategy, using the same civ on the same map.

Browd said:

Although it's sure to be nerfed eventually, I've grown fond of Tradition (or Liberty) then Patronage + Aesthetics (+ Pledge) and then into Rationalism.

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Yep, except that I usually go for Scholasticism since I've been emphasizing a gold economy lately and getting a lot of city-states. Scholasticism offers a nice science boost.

It's been so long since I've built GL but it gives a free tech, right? Since one would sacrifice everything plus 20-24 turns of production (best case) for something that you can accomplish in 8-10 turns? I understand about wanting to open a new policy branch as soon as possible but one is better off finishing Tradition first (which is why Oracle can be popular). The opening of Patronage or Rationalism doesn't give you that much of a boost to sacrifice growth, production and gold, I don't think.

The Pilgrim said:

Fail gold on emperor is not such a fail after the patch. Besides, if the wonder goes much earlier than usual (which is roughly your target), you barely invested anything and you lose nothing. But by any mean I'm not going to advocate chasing after GL. That's a good thing you're not obsessed with it. Too many people are.

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Yeah, that's true

TBH, If I'm going after wonders earlier, I've been more obsessed with ToA, SH, HG, Pyramids combo. ToA + SH + Pyramids all give GE pts and HG gives the free garden, so this spawns a GE pretty quickly, which can be used to rush another wonder that I would otherwise miss (e.g., Petra, Oracle, etc.). These wonders also give a nice combo of benefits:

ToA: Growth + boost to overpowered ranged unit production
SH: Religion (useful for civs who don't get any faith bonus), which can also be used to prioritize growth, via food and/or happiness
HG: Growth + free garden
Pyramids: 2 workers + faster improvements

Pretty sweet when you can string these together. I find I can do it fairly consistently on emperor, especially with Ramesses, but I have to make sure that I am buying defensive units not settlers or else I have found myself invaded with large armies (Japan, Greece, Bablyon, etc.) that I can't stop.

Buccaneer said:

Yep, except that I usually go for Scholasticism since I've been emphasizing a gold economy lately and getting a lot of city-states. Scholasticism offers a nice science boost.

It's been so long since I've built GL but it gives a free tech, right? Since one would sacrifice everything plus 20-24 turns of production (best case) for something that you can accomplish in 8-10 turns? I understand about wanting to open a new policy branch as soon as possible but one is better off finishing Tradition first (which is why Oracle can be popular). The opening of Patronage or Rationalism doesn't give you that much of a boost to sacrifice growth, production and gold, I don't think.

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Yeah, only times I build GL are (A) when playing Mayans, on Emperor and below (sometimes Immortal if the start is productive enough), to beeline for early (before turn 61) Theology and (B) on some lower level GOTMs.

My main problem with Patronage - when I open it, I don't want to stop. I want at least 4 policies in. I manage to pull this off with OCC, but never with 4 or more cities.

Buccaneer said:

The opening of Patronage or Rationalism doesn't give you that much of a boost to sacrifice growth, production and gold, I don't think.

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It's more about peaking bpt - wise as early as possible. For speedy finish you do have to fly through Rationalism and Patronage doesn't help with that matter. Although if you somehow find the culture to grab Scholasticism, it's definitely a nice booster.

futurehermit said:

Yeah, that's true

TBH, If I'm going after wonders earlier, I've been more obsessed with ToA, SH, HG, Pyramids combo. ToA + SH + Pyramids all give GE pts and HG gives the free garden, so this spawns a GE pretty quickly, which can be used to rush another wonder that I would otherwise miss (e.g., Petra, Oracle, etc.). These wonders also give a nice combo of benefits:

ToA: Growth + boost to overpowered ranged unit production
SH: Religion (useful for civs who don't get any faith bonus), which can also be used to prioritize growth, via food and/or happiness
HG: Growth + free garden
Pyramids: 2 workers + faster improvements

Pretty sweet when you can string these together. I find I can do it fairly consistently on emperor, especially with Ramesses, but I have to make sure that I am buying defensive units not settlers or else I have found myself invaded with large armies (Japan, Greece, Bablyon, etc.) that I can't stop.

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So you're obsessed with other wonders! Good one. On emperor with an average or better start usually you can build whatever you want. Occasionally you'll miss on wonder or two, but the vast majority will be yours. But again, the question is whether you need them or just want them.

This is a very good starting strategy for rapid expansion to 4 cities without sacrificing early research. The only thing I would do different is build a Shrine early on to get the necessary to start a pantheon and eventually a religion. My ideal opening build path would be...

Scout -> Monument -> Shrine -> Great Library -> National College -> Settler (for third city)

If timed right, a free settler from Collective Rule will arrive to found the second city about the same time the NC finishes. Building the GL will allow you to research techs for early resources and building roads. You get one worker for free and then buy a 2nd to start developing your land. If you have good tiles near your city, you probably don't need to prioritize the Granary quite so early. I'd rather have my choice of religion than an early Granary.