SGOTM 09 - Murky Waters

Gnejs said:
Are we set on going the cottage route? Couldn't a specialist economy that is later supported by a hammer economy as in our last game be an alternative?
Click to expand...
I think we'll want to run a lot of specialists to generate GPs eventually. It would be nice if we got ahold of the Pyramids first.
 
Erkon said:
Each grassland can either be cottaged or farmed to support a specialist (with biology), so with representation we get similar figures, yes? Still, we need cottages in our capital/oxford city. Preserves are a good compromise that can help us through the mid game. The dynamics of the economy may have an impact, so I don't think it's enough with just calculating static commerce/beaker figures.
Click to expand...

I am not sure that our capital should get Oxford, or rather I am not sure about whether Oxford should be built in a cottage city. Lets think about it:

A perfect cottage city has twenty riverside grassland, giving 20*6(?) = 120 base commerce * 1.5 (from bureaucracy) * 3 (from Oxford) = 540 bpt.

A great specialist city has two farmed corn and 18 forest preserves. And a national park. Allows for 18+5 =23 specialists and 18 forest preserves (2c?) = 174 base beakers *3 (oxford) = 522 bpt.

So the NP city gives us a few bpt less, but we can apply the bureaucracy bonus somewhere else or can even switch to another civic like free speech.
 
If we skip rifling (= paratroopers) we still need about 6300 beakers (20% prereq bonus already removed) to complete Biology. We could bulb Chemistry and Biology with 5 scis, but we'd have to bulb or research Printing PRess first and avoid Compass (Optics + Astro + Physics) and meditation (Philo). Then we'd still have 1800 beakers left. And we'd have to build the Pyramids early on, while we're rexing.

Then with all that sped-up research, we'd still need a combination of about 100 villages/town/wrkshps to have adequate research carrying forward.

Maybe it would work if we find stone early on.
 
My 2cents on the capital is to always assume it won't be moved because you don't know if there will be a better feasible site (remember no city razing especially), let alone one that you can get developed in enough time to make it worthwhile - ie a lot has to go right to make moving worthwhile unless you have an absolutely abysmal starting location. All we have now to base our decision on is the knowledge of the current map plus guesses due to blue circles etc, I would assume since there are 2 corn we can use at this point the expected value over the course of the game points towards assuming it will not move.

I think we should cottage the capital, at least until we decide whether we will move it or not. Remember we can move it later to a location with wkshps instead of waiting for cottages to develop and use the beauro bonus on production to build research and research buildings only there. I like the idea of mid's-SE transition to an HE with a cottaged capital under beauro but we will need to see more of the map to see if that is feasible.

@gnejs - FS argues for a CE since it give +2:commerce: to towns

Also against the CE is the need to self-research democracy on this level. With only the capital cottaged, missing emancipation can probably be overcome by building workshops under SP/caste in the later used tiles and running sci's while waiting for guilds/chem. The fact that we can bulb chem early also argues more for earlier wkshops and a HE.

Also in space race HE gets the parts build faster than CE full stop.

Random thought - IMO nothing is more powerful than taking decent AI capital locations early. That's why the inca's got banned from HOF. Let's get the airships out and figure out how to take at least our neighbor quickly and make that priority one. That will also protect ideal future city sites from being blocked by AI settler stupidity.

@klarius - what units are the AI going to build from the start as defenders and what techs are they most likely to research first?

Can we paratroop into fog?

EDIT: No comments on the PPP.
 
Do we need to research biology at all :eek:? It's needed only very late for the space race and could be left to the AI.
I don't see any big argument for SE everywhere. The 1 farm = 1 specialist is a simplification. You also need the health and happiness and have to grow the pop. So it leaves the striking NP city, but is this really worth it?
There are talks about bulbing a lot. Do we want to that? Settled GS in the Oxford city provide more beakers in the long run and the hammers don't hurt either. There was also talk of wanting a lot of golden ages.
Also note that bulbing biology needs to avoid oracling electricity.
 
Preserves and environmentalism more or less takes care of health and unhappiness for us. Much better than in a standard game at least. Whether this changes the SE/CE balance is the question.
 
PPP comments:
Yes, let's settle 1S.
I don't get the partial settler-warrior thing. I've done many a times partial warrior till grown to the right pop, then settler at max speed thing. This I don't understand, could someone explain the rationale behind it?
We either want settler asap or growth asap. Does it get the settler out sooner????


Specialist comments: No bulbing this game. It's a long Space game. We settle them or we (ab)use GAges.
 
Gnejs said:
Preserves and environmentalism more or less takes care of health and unhappiness for us. Much better than in a standard game at least. Whether this changes the SE/CE balance is the question.
Click to expand...
Well, but do we really want environmentalism through the whole game? And preserves prevent farms on these tiles :crazyeye:, so you have to balance for the extra population which you would not need at all for running cottages or workshops.
 
FiveAces said:
@klarius - what units are the AI going to build from the start as defenders and what techs are they most likely to research first?
Click to expand...
There is nothing special at the start. The AI can and will build archers. Crossbows come only with iron hooked.
The late techs open are much to expensive to consider. The obsolete buildings and wonders have only a minor effect.
IW will get a small boost from iron directly enabling crossbows, but as this is an AI favorite anyway, I don't think that changes much. All in all, the unknown leaders and land around their capitals has more effect than the special tech situation.
 
FiveAces said:
Can we paratroop into fog?
Click to expand...

No. You can only paradrop to tiles that are visible*. It's not even enough that they are revealed.

* Either visible from our borders, or by a nearby unit, or after airship recon mission
 
jesusin said:
I don't get the partial settler-warrior thing. I've done many a times partial warrior till grown to the right pop, then settler at max speed thing. This I don't understand, could someone explain the rationale behind it?
We either want settler asap or growth asap. Does it get the settler out sooner????
Click to expand...
I don't think there's a general rule. It just depends on the tiles you have to work at pop1 and pop2. In our case, an extra irrigated corn farm is huge. Here are 4 variants, 2 about equal, 2 worse:

Code: 
variant             pop  granary  settler          warrior   starts losing hammers
-------             ---  -------  -------          -------   ---------------------  
WarToPop2-settler   2    1/16     24/65 11hpt(4t)  4/10      T25
set(2t)-WarToPop2   2    1/16     24/65 11hpt(4t)  3/10      T26


set(3t)-WarToPop2   2    0/16     20/65 11hpt(5t)  3/10      T27
bld settler         1    0/14     24/65  7hpt(4t)  --        --
I'll do the first, since it's better than #2 if we finish the warrior sooner. (Previously, I was thinking it started losing its hammers sooner, but now I see it's only one turn sooner.)
 
PPP updated slightly to clarify exploration goals and growth to pop2 sequence. No significant changes.

I'll move the settler 1S and move the scout somewhere in a half hour. If there's reason to discuss settling, I'll let you guys know.

You have a half hour to stop this train. :)
 
I'm happy with the PPP. The only thing of note is that you can move the scout again before settling.
 
Turnset report updated w/ screenshot. klarius was right, sheep on the western plains tile. Settling 1s gives us 6 river tiles, all appearing to be grassland, and a grass hill where ZPV projected it. The 2 blue circles remain. Settle?

klarius, I'll wait to continue until you tell me if you want to study the save or discuss this (since you weren't happy about deciding yet). RSVP.
 
Gnejs said:
Settle. You did remember to change civics last turn, right?
Click to expand...
Yes. Forgot to report it, though (sweat dripping all over keyboard...) EDIT: Interesting, though, that when I ran those tests jesusin asked about this morning, the first time I forgot...luckily, because that warned me to not forget it in real time.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Gumbolt
[BTS] SGOTM 27 interest.
2 3 4
Replies
77
Views
11K
Gumbolt
Gumbolt
Sommerswerd
  • Poll
Who Are You Picking To Win The Superbowl? - Superbowl 58
2
Replies
22
Views
942
Gori the Grey
Gori the Grey
DynamicSpirit
  • Sticky
[BTS] News: BOTM 271 - Babylon, Deity! Starts 5 April
Replies
3
Views
560
antimony
A
Nizef
TSG 241 Announcement
Replies
9
Views
737
sebtanic
S
V
  • Sticky
TSG 242 Announcement
Replies
3
Views
634
Megalou
Megalou
Top Bottom