Civ veteran finally buys Civ 5. Need advice

not every war in civ is a backstab. There are plenty of Germany-Poland situations (basically - I want your land. I'm gonna take it)

Germany did have a non-agression pact with the USSR that they totally broke...

Italy backstabbed Germany in WW1 as well...

France & England's history is so complicated, honestly I can't even imagine that playing out in a civ game.

But I will agree with you on one thing. It is difficult to get real allies in this game. I think a few civs could have their "loyalty" modifier bumped up a bit.
 
Backstabbing is not the problem it's how they backstab, Germany did not start the alliance to backstab the Russians, same for Italy, these where all emergent situations brought on by circumstances, not a plan to lure them into a false sense of security to then strike.

The France England situation never involved much backstabbing either, as I understand it:
William the Bastard takes over England
England invades France
France kicks them out
Best buds

Also you forget to take into account opinions and etiquette, a few wrong moves on the international level and not a single country will trust a word you say, even worse if the Pope got involved and you got your ass excommunicated.

I suppose the point is a bit moot as the level of realism in CiV is horrible, and although my recent experiences with CK2 undoubtedly cloud my judgement, even CIV felt so much more realistic then this game, I would not as much call CiV a simulation or empire building game but some strange form of "Superchess", which could be interesting in it's own right if they hadn't forgotten to make an AI.
 
Backstabbing is not the problem it's how they backstab, Germany did not start the alliance to backstab the Russians, same for Italy, these where all emergent situations brought on by circumstances, not a plan to lure them into a false sense of security to then strike.

The France England situation never involved much backstabbing either, as I understand it:
William the Bastard takes over England
England invades France
France kicks them out
Best buds

Also you forget to take into account opinions and etiquette, a few wrong moves on the international level and not a single country will trust a word you say, even worse if the Pope got involved and you got your ass excommunicated.

I suppose the point is a bit moot as the level of realism in CiV is horrible, and although my recent experiences with CK2 undoubtedly cloud my judgement, even CIV felt so much more realistic then this game, I would not as much call CiV a simulation or empire building game but some strange form of "Superchess", which could be interesting in it's own right if they hadn't forgotten to make an AI.

I think you are somewhat misunderstanding the backstab mechanism in-game. The AI isn't planning to lure you into a friendship just to backstab you for fun. It's not a 'master plan' - it's just smarter not to let others know exactly how you feel. If an opponent is dumb enough to believe you are really "friendly" when there are troops massed on the border, well that's his fault. The AI is opportunistic - a good trait when it comes to CIV, IMO.
 
Yes, I would reiterate for the benefit of the OP that, far from "never using" DoFs, these are one of the most useful mechanisms in the (patched) game. That's because DoFs are really the *only* effective way to limit warmonger hate when carrying out aggressive war. Those saying "never use" probably did not make DoFs with the right AIs, and got burned. It's true that the game gives few pointers to their use, but people have figured it out from trial and error, or by examining the XML. The following always give a warmonger hate demerit with every AI you are in contact with (may not be an exhaustive list):

- You declare war
- raze a city
- capture an AI capital
- kill a CS
- kill an AI civ

This will vary by AI civ depending on their warmonger hate threshold.

You can "mask" this negativity with an individual AI civ by having a DoF with that civ at the time of commission of the evil deed. That means if you are planning a war of aggression, you should some turns ahead (but not too many, as DoFs expire after 30(?) turns and you don't want them to run out right before you capture a capital or wipe out an AI civ) check out the diplomacy scene to see especially what are the other AIs relations with the target.

Another source of animosity will be AI border proximity. The AI doesn't like to be touched, but some of the AI civs, like Catherine, do like to touch you:) Too bad there's no Boudica yet in CivV, or that Isabella is not nearly as sexy as she was in Civ4 - but only if you shared the same weird religious cult with her, then she got all perky-happy like she's the best girlfriend you'll ever have. Oh well, get a life and move on, and to think I'm married! In either case, touchy-feely borders mean the closest AI civs will be most hostile. So you will be keeping your enemies closer, as the old Mafia saying goes, whether you like it or not. So an obvious counter will be to seek DoFs with AI civ on the other side of your neighborly enemies while trying to draw them into wars with your near enemies with bribes or DPs.

Note that even if you are attacked (DoWed) by the AI, commission of any of the above save the first obviously will produce the same warmonger hate result. Yes, yes, you are pursuing a strategy of peaceful defensive builder and were brutally attacked for no apparent reason, and of course the AI being a military idiot due to the additional burden gratuitously imposed by 1UPT considerations (so many things wrong with that design decision!) you will have invariably taken the war to the enemy, committing the war crimes listed above and making you Worse Than Hitler, without the mask of the DoF. There now, wasn't that rewarding for the successful and righteous punishment of a vicious aggressor, and defense of peaceful builder You? You and Saddam Hussein, that is!

There are other sources of negativity such as You Are Wonder-spamming, Land Coveting (usually your same enemy neighbors who already hate you for touching them, so this is just DoublePlus hate, but note that Land Coveting hate can be triggered without border touching if you settle in an area the AI has already mapped out in its AI mind for its own settlement), and my favorite, You Are Trying To Win Like Me, because only the individual AIs are allowed to play to win, and if you try to do the same, it's one more demerit for you, humanoid! I could be wrong, but these forms of non-warmonger hate are not masked by DoFs, so beware.

When considering DoFs you must also take into account DoFs evil sister, the Denouncement. Denouncing a civ that has be denounced by other AI civs will gain you plus attitude with all the other denouncers. So its always good to have as a target of aggression an AI civ roundly denounced by several other AI civs. Make sure you denounce them before you DoW, that will at least cancel out the negative warmonger hate earned with those same civs. Better yet, plan this in advance: Denounce the universally denounced civ, then WAIT - do go rushing over to your fellow denouncers like an anxious little wuss going, "Can we be friends? Can we? Can we?" - wait for their mugs to pop in you face the next turn or so saying how much they agree that that Saddam is really a bad guy. Then wait another turn and then contact them for a DoF. I can't guarantee this 100%, but it seems waiting for them to pop up first increases your chance of getting a DoF, depending of course on the existence of other positives such as palm grease, trades, past wars fought together, etc. In fact you can use this mechanism to dogpile denounce the Saddam civ, then (as they often do) when one of your fellow denouncers pops up to ask that you join in a war against the Saddam civ, you can just enter into a phony war 10 turns later and get extra credit for fighting a war together - along with any DoF you have with them and the joint denouncement.

But keep in mind this is all to delay the inevitable: They are all going to hate you in the end for trying to win the game. It's like playing chess with your 5 year old son.

Overall, the generic high yield strategy for those who don't mind playing into the Modern Era is: beeline Stealth Bombers. Yes, yes, what about EARLY conquest, but the advantage here is that it works with ANY civ while early conquest favors adopting only certain civs, though as you'll see, America, Korea and Babylon have obvious advantages. Gosh, Saddam Hussein, Kim Jung Il (or whoever his successor is) and GW Bush all flying early stealth bombers...anyway do this:

- turtle with 4 or so cities and an adequate defensive force;
- first complete Liberty, then Honor (there are other SP approaches, but Honor 1) assists in the turtle defense and later 2) it is one of the few rewards in the game to watch all that coin float skyward as your Stealth-led strike force slogs through the AI 1UPT Blobs of Doom (otherwise a dreary task without full Honor), making this a must for Diety, etc. as more enemy units == more coin!; then Rationalism (if you tunnel beeline into Renaissance early enough you may want to complete Rationalism before finishing Honor, but complete Honor!; then the piece de Resistance, Autocracy, hopefully time for the appearance of your Stealth Horde.
- Science, science, science: you want to collect a mess of unused GSs for the massive bulb orgy at the end
- spend all your money on RA's and rush science buildings
- Second priority is boosting pop, so happyness is important - another advantage of Honor which give 2 ways to generate flat happyness (plus Liberty helps)

The only real AI counter are nukes, but you'll outrange them with steath, so scout ant prioritize for destruction.

That's the rough cut in a nutshell.
 
The kind of realistic diplomacy where England should have expected France to backstab them the moment they moved their armies to Iraq right? Or the kind of diplomatic situation where Hitler was busy becoming best buds with Poland before the invasion?
I've never been backstabbed by a war ally in CiV unless the war was basically over, and there are tons of real-life parallels to that. By the way, Hitler did become best buds with the Austrians and Czechs before he invaded their countries; it was just obviously not going to work with Poland. He also became best buds with the USSR before invading them.
 
I don't think Civ5 diplomacy purports to model the 20th or 21st century diplomacy of nation-states in an economically driven system. Would actually be kinda nice if it did in some ways, I guess, but I think expecting a reflection of that is a bit much. This is about empires engaging in cold, hard, realism. Now, it doesn't necessarily successfully achieve that, either, but it's closer to what we should be expecting from the system, and closer to what it delivers.
 
@ chazzycat - Well either it is a problem with my brain, or a consequence of the game settings I like, but knowing the situation without looking at the diplomacy overview screen doesn't work for me. With 18 civs on a pangaea, there can be several new denouncements/DoFs/DoWs every turn, and I just can't keep all that in my head.

Also, I agree with what Camikaze posted. :goodjob:
 
One thing of note for a returning vet: roads are expensive in Civ5. Don't build any you don't need and there's no need to build roads to luxuries in this game (they're yours once improved).
 
@ chazzycat - Well either it is a problem with my brain, or a consequence of the game settings I like, but knowing the situation without looking at the diplomacy overview screen doesn't work for me. With 18 civs on a pangaea, there can be several new denouncements/DoFs/DoWs every turn, and I just can't keep all that in my head.

Also, I agree with what Camikaze posted. :goodjob:

Oh...18 civs. Yeah that's another story...can't blame you for losing track.
 
One thing of note for a returning vet: roads are expensive in Civ5. Don't build any you don't need and there's no need to build roads to luxuries in this game (they're yours once improved).

This is verra important, so I'm quoting it! Typically the only roads you'll want will be those creating the shortest possible connection between your cities, since those will create trade routes which will give you money.
 
Another thing new people don't usually realise in the beginning is; a lack of an army will make the A.I. much more aggresive towards you. So you need to build some military units even if they just fortify cities.

Another thing that can happen is seemingly unwillingness to have to deal with you and civs that are all guarded or hostile, without the player understanding why. This happens if you are affable in your diplomacy, always saying yes to friendships never putting your boot down thinking you are peacefull. You can hover over the stance icons and get some information. If you are making friends, and then make friends with their enemies for example you are weakening ties.

A very good thing to is to denounce a civ, his enemies will become your friends. So you have to play the Diplomacygame to live in peace.

Also; scoop up the DLC, it's very much worth it.
 
Backstabbing is not the problem it's how they backstab, Germany did not start the alliance to backstab the Russians,

If you are talking about Adolf Hitler, then his whole plan was to get lebensraum for a german (roman) Empire, and doing so by taking a huge chunk out of Russia. He attacked the west to avoid a twofront war, and would then attack Russia when France and England were defeated. His attack on the west was an attempt to disarm the western nations. His inability to conquer England, can have led the Nazis to talk Japan into attacking the US, to tie the US up in the pacific, and thus avoid a western front in Europe, isolating England on it's isle.

He was intend on backstabbing from the beginning, but then again, so was Josef Stalin. He just underestimated how fast France would fall, so he wasn't ready.
 
Russia wasn't really a priority for Hitler, as I understand his reasoning for invading Russia where pretty unclear, combine this with him suddenly taking control of his countries military aspect from far more capable German generals and him finding out about a life threatening illness at that point (I believe Parkinsons, saw it years ago on a Discovery documentary(back when they still made documentairies)) I think we can assume his attack on Russia was either fueled by (delayed) insanity or fear of death, as most of his choices during that time became amateuristic as he tried to control everything.
Pretty sure even his generals advised against attacking Russia, but it's hard to stop a madmen with absolute power.

The whole lebensraum thing was pretty important as well ofcourse, but not enough reason to attack the Russian behemoth when there where still far less powerful countries he could have easily taken.

And as far as Pearl Harbor goes, the Americans had been harassing the Japanese for months, sabotage, blocking trade routes, taking out lonely ships and I recall completely disrupting their oil supply.

America has a very strong tendency of harassing until they "get" a reason to declare war while still holding some moral high ground, just read about the Lusitania in WWI or even the Iraq war with those nuclear corn silo's and although unlike the Lusitania it's not proven or admitted yet, I'm sure 9/11 was the same, America has done this routine several times before and likely will do so again whenever they see fit.

I'm inclined to include a paragraph about why America (or Federal America to be precise) loves it's wars so much but I think I've done enough de-railing for now.
 
Try chieftain difficulty only for your first game to learn how it works. If you are a veteran, even by your second game you will want to play on warlord. Civ V has a different feel to it and it does take some getting used to. But once you get used to it you will probably like it. Civ V appears to be superficial at first glance, but it really does have a lot more depth than may appear at first.

In Civ V, the AI is more aggressive and backstabbing, kind of like a human would be. An AI can go from friendly to hostile in just a few turns. So you need to be ready for it, you can't neglect you military. If the AI thinks you are week they will take advantage of it, especially on higher difficulties. You also can't expand too quickly. An empire of just 3 or 4 cities may be all you need for a long time.
 
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