America - The Civilization of Contradictions

Is America really that bad to play as, or is it just they don't get the great bonus to help you win?

Can you play tall (3-6) cities with America?
What are the best social policies?
If playing tall, should you skip liberity?

I would like to play America with 3-6 cities, depending on the game, playing peacefully for a science or diplo win on emperor. I just beat king as the Dutch turn 448. Is this a good idea?
 
Is America really that bad to play as, or is it just they don't get the great bonus to help you win?

Can you play tall (3-6) cities with America?
What are the best social policies?
If playing tall, should you skip liberity?

I would like to play America with 3-6 cities, depending on the game, playing peacefully for a science or diplo win on emperor. I just beat king as the Dutch turn 448. Is this a good idea?

I or you can say "I am so good I can win every game with anything"

Well, very nice. but this is the internet so who know.

The point of this thread is to discuss whether or not America's UA + UU is that much useful, and to be concrete, are they as good comparing to most other civ?
 
Is America really that bad to play as, or is it just they don't get the great bonus to help you win?

Can you play tall (3-6) cities with America?
What are the best social policies?
If playing tall, should you skip liberity?

I would like to play America with 3-6 cities, depending on the game, playing peacefully for a science or diplo win on emperor. I just beat king as the Dutch turn 448. Is this a good idea?

6 self founded cities isn't tall, but is instead wide.
Tall is 3 or 4 self founded cities.
5 self founded is generally considered to be no mans land. (Too few to take advantage of Liberty, too many for non-Liberty due to zero growth while building)

Yes, every single civ is suitable for Tall Tradition start under all circumstances. (Tall Tradition is that good)

Yup, unless self founding 6+ cities (where liberty's settler founder bonus is needed) then Monarchy's 50% unhappiness reduction to the capital combined with the Tradition tree's growth bonuses are more important than Liberty's settler bonuses.

Liberty starts run into issues when:
1) Aggressive AI starts too close
2) Low diversity of happiness resources
 
I like America vs. a HUGE map, as it is historically/hysterically accurate . Throw in : world age-2billion years, wet; Raging Barbarians, Increased Barb. Spawn, Unlimited Barb. Experence , and Caravan Buff mods; disable time and diplomatic VC's; and you've got a real tussle on your hands !
By the time you fight your way up to 4th city, you'll have the army to work your way inland, or to the coasts .
Consider AI's as nasty Injuns, and treat them as 'Townburner' Washington did.
Other AI civ's aspired to small empires, America went for a continent-spanning Imperial Republic .
What is there not to like as a carefull warmonger ??
 
6 self founded cities isn't tall, but is instead wide.
Tall is 3 or 4 self founded cities.
5 self founded is generally considered to be no mans land. (Too few to take advantage of Liberty, too many for non-Liberty due to zero growth while building)

Yes, every single civ is suitable for Tall Tradition start under all circumstances. (Tall Tradition is that good)

Yup, unless self founding 6+ cities (where liberty's settler founder bonus is needed) then Monarchy's 50% unhappiness reduction to the capital combined with the Tradition tree's growth bonuses are more important than Liberty's settler bonuses.

Liberty starts run into issues when:
1) Aggressive AI starts too close
2) Low diversity of happiness resources
People tend to play liberty the wrong way. I can summarize how to play the two policies in two sentences:
1. For tradition, you grow before you produce.
2. For liberty, you produce before you grow.
 
My opinion: civs like USA and Brazil are designed to be played preferably (but not exclusively, of course) in games started at Renaissance, maybe medieval.

Someone said "minuteman are scouts on steroids". Well, start a game on Renaissance and suddenly they're almost OP, scouting the planet without punishment and stuff.

Brazil also suffers a lot by starting games in Ancient Era, because many carnivals are wasted, plus early jungle sucks and it takes forever to acess the few mines below them for production. Starting in medieval/renaissance changes that, Brazil's game becomes totally awersome.
 
Seems pretty clear cut to me. America is a civ built for war. Take honour, settle, buy, attack. I enjoy those games.
 
I actually really like the design of America in civilization 5. I realize they aren't considered extremely powerful, but I don't play the game to maximize my score. If your goal is simply to have fun, win, and/or utilize the civs benefits then I think it's hard to argue that they are poorly designed.

You have early benefits that match America's early expansion across North America (bonus sight range, buying tiles for cheap). This helps acquire valuable tiles and land to strengthen your mid game into a solid unique unit (minuteman). Then of course we have the late game bomber to represent America's current military power. I think the designers made a near perfect creation with a young civilization (as others have said) and gave them benefits in every period of the game.
 
I don't get how bombers come too late for a domination victory? Either youre struggling to win a domination victory - and they'll give you a great advantage to win it late game, or you've already won it as you say...then great!

America is underrated as a civ I think. 2 great UUs. Minutemen - scouts on steroids. B-17s. One of the best units in game. Quite powerful 2 parted UA - extra sight is a great boon - and the cheap purchasing can be very very useful when stealing resources!
 
My opinion: civs like USA and Brazil are designed to be played preferably (but not exclusively, of course) in games started at Renaissance, maybe medieval.

I have been considering doing this with America and Brazil, mostly for role-playing reasons. Who else has tried later era starts? How does it change the flow of the game? Are Ancient and Classical Wonders unavailable? What about founding religions? I will have to try it just to see what it is like, maybe in conjunction with a slower game speed so there is more time to play with the UUs.
 
I don't get how bombers come too late for a domination victory? Either youre struggling to win a domination victory - and they'll give you a great advantage to win it late game, or you've already won it as you say...then great!

America is underrated as a civ I think. 2 great UUs. Minutemen - scouts on steroids. B-17s. One of the best units in game. Quite powerful 2 parted UA - extra sight is a great boon - and the cheap purchasing can be very very useful when stealing resources!

The B-17 was the unique unit whose special ability was reversed so it was actually EASIER to shoot down than a normal bomber. (the 50% evasion was somehow reversed so it got applied as a bonus to fighters trying to shoot the B17 down)

Nobody noticed until over a year after Civ 5 was released.

So not only was it the worst unique unit in the game for 15 months, nobody used it enough to even notice how bad it was.

You can see the patch notes for it here.
 
The B-17 was the unique unit whose special ability was reversed so it was actually EASIER to shoot down than a normal bomber. (the 50% evasion was somehow reversed so it got applied as a bonus to fighters trying to shoot the B17 down)

Nobody noticed until over a year after Civ 5 was released.

So not only was it the worst unique unit in the game for 15 months, nobody used it enough to even notice how bad it was.

You can see the patch notes for it here.

Personally, evasion doesn't really matter much for me, because I'll rarely ever send a plane in when I see that there's an anti-aircraft attack left on the match-up screen.
 
Personally, evasion doesn't really matter much for me, because I'll rarely ever send a plane in when I see that there's an anti-aircraft attack left on the match-up screen.

Evasion has gotten alot better since fall patch because of the stack limit. Now you have to either choose to send in 10 bombers from 1 city or less, with fighter sweeps. The evasion of B-17 can prevent 1 shot by fighter and mobile sams.
 
Germany and Brazil are younger, but you can claim their culture and history goes back further. Still, as countries, they are younger.

I'm not sure the fact America doesn't aim for a specific VC is a problem. Poland doesn't either, and it's considered god tier.

If you are suggesting they should be geared toward technology, I say...maybe. America is known for it's technology, but even at its height, we Sputnik was the first manmade satellite, Yuri Gagarin was the first man in space, and America was the first to land on the moon likely only because the USSR wasn't trying. CD's were developed by Dutch and Japanese companies. Watson and Crick "discovered" DNA nearly 100 years after Miescher (who was Swiss).

I also think the influence seen of American culture (from Americans) is more nationalism than actual influence, but it may depend on how you look at what influential culture means in Civ. America hardly has a culture of it's own. Our writers are based in Greek themes using a form (novel) that is best traced back to Spain. Our music is in the tradition of Africa (from Rock to Pop to Metal to Country, most of today's music either developed from Blues), as if some of the most well known bands aren't English and singers Canadian or Australian. Art...well, let's not talk about contemporary art (sorry, throwing paint at canvas isn't art to me).

In terms of Civ, I would claim these things show a weak American culture, as our culture has been influenced by so many others. Of course, talking about a 250 year old country, so any cultural traditions were already in place...

But that is all to say that America probably should not have a strong push toward one type of victory, other than domination. Now, that being said, America's bonuses are a bit...shifty. It's hard to quantify exactly what you get from them.

If you buy few tiles, maybe the cheaper tiles still made a difference. When I play as America, sometimes I settle a little differently because I know I CAN buy that lux tile in the 3rd ring if needed.

Maybe the larger sight made a difference too. Without the +1 sight range, would you have known about that one spot you put your second city, when your settler was done? Maybe, but maybe not.

How did the extra movement of minutemen though rough terrain save hammers, or maybe even let you take a city? Did it make a difference? How about the extra points toward a GA? Did that ever help?

For a country that is fairly obsessive about the biggest buildings and malls, and even the biggest rocking chairs, foot stools, and pizzas (you need not go far in rural America to find towns that have claims to the "biggest [insert thing no one cares about being big]" where I'm from, a nearby town has the "biggest chair"), having bonuses that aren't smack-you-in-the-face obvious is a little funny.

If America were mine to design, I'd probably give a straight up boost to attacking cities with the UA, replace courthouses with town halls that give extra culture and happiness while at war (on a per civ basis), and make the UU like the Musketeer, just more power behind it's attacks. War focused, obvious bonuses.

America is not the land of subtlety, but the bonuses in Civ make it so. That would be my beef with the design. I don't think America is too weak (I'd certainly claim there are much worse civs out there), but needing to go in some other direction with the civ? Nah, it's oriented in the right way, domination focus, but not so much so that it's bad to go another way.

The bonuses are just too amorphous to really show the way of America; bigger is better, Super size me.

Now I miss my big cokes....

Your right about Brazil bring younger. But I would argue Germany is a mix of various forms of Germany. There UA of converting barbarians is based on their history with Rome for example.
I would argue American influence on music is uniquely American. The blues comes from African American culture. And while some of the tradition of chanting and some of the rhythms are african. The tradition of blue tones and notes that birthed jazz and inspired rock and roll are based on the black experience in the south. I think it's a stretch to attribute African Americans' manipulation of the sound of piano, guitars, and brass as something to Africa. It's an experience and mix only living in America could create. The casual everyday fashions and trends were originally american. The comic book heroes that break box office records every summer are american. The concept of Hollywood itself is american. The league of nations, while a failure, was American and inspired the UN. Apple, micro soft and Google drive industrial design and software design. All ameRican (credit due to South Korea and Japan as well). For good and for bad, America's persistense in creating "democratic" governments around the world is the definition of the Culture victory.
 
I never liked Germany in Civ games. Purssia was always a better choice in my mind, and part of that is how they try to go back too far. If Germany is what all the German tribes developed into, England should be part of Germany (as should Denmark, and you could make a very very strong argument that Sweden should as well). Not really a discussion for this thread, though, I suppose, and like I said, it's easier to see how one could imagine Brazilian and German history going back further.

You might be surprised, however, at exactly how Greek comic book heroes are. There's some research on the subject, but I'm not familiar enough with the research or comic books on their own to point out more than the fact research exists on the topic, and that I know enough about it to say it seems interesting and the influences are pretty major.

I think, though, we may have different ideas on what level you need to see culture as being from elsewhere and what exactly that means in terms of civ. The game, I think intentionally, doesn't give much direction in what thy think. Certainly it's something more than blue jeans and pop music. People aren't spending thousands of years looking at your art, listening to your music, visit your cities, etc. to finally just start buying the latest CD.

I think you are seeing the differences between civs at "influential" as more different than I, though. When I see "influential," I think Greece and Rome. If I understand correctly, you think more like Rome and Egypt.

That is, I think of very deep cultural similarities, even to the point that the only "true culture" comes from the other place or is based on what comes from the other place, and there is a feeling of "oneness" with that place (Romans considered themselves decedents from the survivors of Troy, so...they were from Greece, according to themselves.)

You look more like, place influenced looks and says "we like their stuff, but we aren't like them." That's perfectly valid, as well, but based on those differences, we'll disagree on America being a cultural civ or not, in real life, and, then, of course, how it should be in the game.

That, though, makes what they did maybe even better, because I don't think many people would disagree that America has been an expansive country that's never been afraid to exercise it's military muscle, which is exactly what they are in game.

Any other differences can end up not mattering, because even if we say "I couldn't done that better," we should be able to agree "but it's not bad."
 
It's a personal thing, probably, but i consider civilisation strong if it gets noticeable advantage at turn 0, or close (Babylon type of "close"). If that's not the case, then it's randomness, which may or may not happen, and, most likely, won't, well, to me at least.. That is why i consider civs, like Siam, Austria, Spain, Netherlands sub-par choices in my games, where i don't do re-roll and can plan consistently and strategically in accordance with bonuses, provided by unique traits. I have a lot of respect for civs, like the Celts, Egypt, Inca, Russia and.. you get the point. I am a type of person, who always sells horse/iron for 60 gold (as in 2 GPT per one unit - the real price), so, 50% discount on tile purchases seems huge to me. That visibility bonus seems even bigger, especially given my affinity to Pangaea maps, sometimes huge in size and opening up with 3-4 scouts. (HA! lots of free early workers, consistently..)

TL;DR I am a firm believer that micromanagement during first 50 turns makes a difference between a stellar game and 300 turn-long fight for survival. America's subtleties are very handy in this regard.
 
Honestly, I've never tried a game as America before. I just started a game up tonight, out of curiosity:

The +1 sight to all land units is HUGE. DO NOT underestimate this UA.
 
Let me explain. With the +1 sight, I can:

Settle the BEST spot for my first city (without having to load autosave_initial again!)
Chart the entire continent twice as fast
SEE what the barbs are doing from a fair distance, and move accordingly
KNOW exactly what direction my opponents, both near and far, are expanding, while retaining 'big picture' view of the game which enables me to respond accordingly.
Spot artillery targets without needing to put a single unit within enemy firing range.

+1 sight to land units OWNS.
 
Let me explain. With the +1 sight, I can:

Settle the BEST spot for my first city (without having to load autosave_initial again!)
Chart the entire continent twice as fast
SEE what the barbs are doing from a fair distance, and move accordingly
KNOW exactly what direction my opponents, both near and far, are expanding, while retaining 'big picture' view of the game which enables me to respond accordingly.
Spot artillery targets without needing to put a single unit within enemy firing range.

+1 sight to land units OWNS.

Being able to think ahead 1 turn in advance is HUGE in a turn based game. Totally agree with your assessment.
 
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