Crime & Punishment

Dancing Hoskuld · Aug 29, 2011

velosepappe said:
Yes, I forgot to add this, but really I think it comes too late. Mind that scavenging (bandit hideout) is only 3 techs away from the start and canine domestication is 32 techs. Maybe you could use some subdued animals to spot, or maybe automatically attack any hidden units without you being able to see them.

Subdued wolf could spot hidden but I would prefer that subdued animals be defensive only since that solves other problems with the units.

Hydromancerx · Aug 29, 2011

Dancing Hoskuld said:
Subdued wolf could spot hidden but I would prefer that subdued animals be defensive only since that solves other problems with the units.

I think it would be fitting for the subdued wolf to have ability to see thief units. And it could still keep them as defense only since they do not have to attack anything to see the units. If anything they would be parked inside your city to sense if a thief is nearby. Then bring out other units to attack the thief.

velosepappe · Aug 29, 2011

Hydromancerx said:
I think it would be fitting for the subdued wolf to have ability to see thief units. And it could still keep them as defense only since they do not have to attack anything to see the units. If anything they would be parked inside your city to sense if a thief is nearby. Then bring out other units to attack the thief.

I dont know about this, in that case your subdued wolf would be a something of a too perfect counter to these units. If you could make them spot hidden nationality units only once and then suicide against thiefs it would make them more balanced.

I think of something like a popup: your hounds are restless, they seem to have spotted a hidden enemy, options:
-release the hounds: destroys the subdeud wolf and any hidden enemy within 2 spots of the subdued wolf
-dont let them run: does nothing but you have an indication that a hidden enemy runs around so you can station units on your infrastructure and workers

EldrinFal · Aug 29, 2011

velosepappe said:
I dont know about this, in that case your subdued wolf would be a something of a too perfect counter to these units. If you could make them spot hidden nationality units only once and then suicide against thiefs it would make them more balanced.

I think of something like a popup: your hounds are restless, they seem to have spotted a hidden enemy, options:
-release the hounds: destroys the subdeud wolf and any hidden enemy within 2 spots of the subdued wolf
-dont let them run: does nothing but you have an indication that a hidden enemy runs around so you can station units on your infrastructure and workers

I don't think a pop-up dialogue should appear for spotting thieves. It will get annoying way too fast.

I'm inclined to what DH said about being Defense Only. A subdued animal unit is one beaten to submission, wrangled, and then likely lead by some men by leash (or in a cage or tied up) back to a town where they are THEN bred and trained in order to allow proper units. Wolf units brought back to a town could be upgraded to one of the Guard Dog or Hunter units, which could then spot rogue-types.

Koshling · Aug 29, 2011

EldrinFal said:
I don't think a pop-up dialogue should appear for spotting thieves. It will get annoying way too fast.

I'm inclined to what DH said about being Defense Only. A subdued animal unit is one beaten to submission, wrangled, and then likely lead by some men by leash (or in a cage or tied up) back to a town where they are THEN bred and trained in order to allow proper units. Wolf units brought back to a town could be upgraded to one of the Guard Dog or Hunter units, which could then spot rogue-types.

I like this suggestion

strategyonly · Aug 29, 2011

Koshling said:
I like this suggestion

I agree

velosepappe · Aug 29, 2011

EldrinFal said:
I don't think a pop-up dialogue should appear for spotting thieves. It will get annoying way too fast.

I'm inclined to what DH said about being Defense Only. A subdued animal unit is one beaten to submission, wrangled, and then likely lead by some men by leash (or in a cage or tied up) back to a town where they are THEN bred and trained in order to allow proper units. Wolf units brought back to a town could be upgraded to one of the Guard Dog or Hunter units, which could then spot rogue-types.

True, it would be annoying, but in real life they would also be pretty annoying, barking all the time in the night because they heard some rustling in the bushes. Better would be to just release them and just let them deal with what frightens them

.

Thats why one of the choices is to release the dogs to sacrifice them against the invisible units. BTW I still feel that dog training comes too late for this cause by that time you will be forced to build bandit hideouts anyway. And letting a single captured be this powerfull (stationed in cities you cant attack them generally).

Hydromancerx · Aug 29, 2011

Ok so i had some ideas for some more new + :espionage:

buildings ..

- Lookout Post
- Sentry Post
- Town Patrol
- Neighborhood Watch
- Surveillance Camera Network

These could be upgrade from one to the other and fit in with the Town Watch building.

-----

Lookout Post
Cost: 10
Req Tech: Cooperation
Obsolete Tech: Masonry
City Size: 1
Upgrades To: Sentry Post

+2
-2
+2 Defense (Except Units with High Explosives)
+2% Defense Against Espionage
Helps Thwart Rival Spies
+10% Production for Defensive Leaders

-----

Sentry Post
Cost: 20
Req Tech: Warfare
Obsolete Tech: Monarchy
City Size: 1
Upgrades To: Town Watch

+4
-4
+4 Defense (Except Units with High Explosives)
+4% Defense Against Espionage
Helps Thwart Rival Spies
+10% Production for Defensive Leaders

-----

Town Watch
Cost: 40
Req Tech: Masonry
Obsolete Tech: ?
City Size: 6
Upgrades To: Town Patrol

+8
-8
+8 Defense (Except Units with High Explosives)
+8% Defense Against Espionage
Helps Thwart Rival Spies
+10% Production for Defensive Leaders

-----

Town Patrol
Cost: 80
Req Tech: Monarchy
Obsolete Tech: ?
City Size: 6
Upgrades To: ?

+16
-16
+16 Defense (Except Units with High Explosives)
+16% Defense Against Espionage
Helps Thwart Rival Spies
+10% Production for Defensive Leaders

-----

And then I am stumped for a between buildings before Neighborhood Watch and Surveillance Camera Network since those are more Modern Era buildings. Or maybe I should spread these 4 out more. Hmmm.

velosepappe · Aug 29, 2011

I think they should be spread out a little, in practice town watch and patrol are pretty much the same thing and would remain the same thing untill decent policing is developed (I'm no history buff so dont take my word for it

). And those spy bonus/gold penalties seem huge for this early in the game.

EldrinFal · Aug 29, 2011

velosepappe said:
True, it would be annoying, but in real life they would also be pretty annoying, barking all the time in the night because they heard some rustling in the bushes. Better would be to just release them and just let them deal with what frightens them .

Hah!

That may be true, but still... it would more annoying than it's worth.

Hydromancerx said:
Ok so i had some ideas for some more new + buildings ..

- Lookout Post
- Sentry Post
- Town Patrol
- Neighborhood Watch
- Surveillance Camera Network

These could be upgrade from one to the other and fit in with the Town Watch building.

And then I am stumped for a between buildings before Neighborhood Watch and Surveillance Camera Network since those are more Modern Era buildings. Or maybe I should spread these 4 out more. Hmmm.

Lookout Post wouldn't be around until some kind of structure-building tech, don't you think? What about starting with something like Organized Patrol? Or Perimeter Patrol? And then Lookout Post is your next one.

For others, you mentioned a Sheriff Unit before, what about a Sheriff's Office? Or Marshall. City Guard seems like it would fit, but I think we have a unit by that name.

Town Watch and Town Patrol do seem a bit close. Masonry and Monarchy are close techs.

Hydromancerx · Aug 29, 2011

@EldrinFal

I am not sure what the name should be for primitive people keeping a look out for say wild animals and stuff besides a look out post. Not that this is different than the Outpost or Watch Tower type of buildings.

As for the the Sheriff's Office and stuff that would be included too just not part of this upgrade chain. Something like ...

- Sentry Types (Town Watch, Surveillance Cameras, etc)
- Police Types (Police Station, Sheriff's Office, etc)
- Jail Types (Stocks, Jail, Gallows, etc)

And your right Masonry and Monarchy are kind of close.

Dancing Hoskuld · Aug 29, 2011

velosepappe said:
I dont know about this, in that case your subdued wolf would be a something of a too perfect counter to these units. If you could make them spot hidden nationality units only once and then suicide against thiefs it would make them more balanced.

I think of something like a popup: your hounds are restless, they seem to have spotted a hidden enemy, options:
-release the hounds: destroys the subdeud wolf and any hidden enemy within 2 spots of the subdued wolf
-dont let them run: does nothing but you have an indication that a hidden enemy runs around so you can station units on your infrastructure and workers

This may be doable with an event and a building but I have not looked into events far enough to do them.

1. Have a wolf pen building built by subdued wolves
2. have an event which happens x% of the time a thief comes in view of the city.
3. options as suggested
4. release wolves results in wolf pen and thief being destroyed
5. expires with canine domestication

Hydromancerx · Aug 29, 2011

You know what I think maybe its better if it just was a single building that just upgraded over time.

Town Watch
Cost: 10
Req Tech: Cooperation
Obsolete Tech: -
City Size: 1

+1
-1
+10 Defense (Except Units with High Explosives)
+10% Defense Against Espionage
Helps Thwart Rival Spies
+10% Production for Defensive Leaders
+1 with Fire Making
-1 with Fire Making
+2 with Candle Making
-2 with Candle Making
+2 with Oil Lamps
-2 with Oil Lamps
+4 with Optics
-4 with Optics
+5 with Gas Lighting
-5 with Gas Lighting
+6 with Electricity
-6 with Electricity
+7 with Laser
-7 with Laser

-----

velosepappe · Aug 29, 2011

Looks cool and interesting enough, but AFAIK events are kind of tricky so probably not the way to go.

EDIT Hydromancer Looks great! As town watch is really a tradeoff building, it doesnt need to cost much. Only consideration is to make clear how to disable/destroy buildings to players as this building would have a really big influence on how the game plays. Even I dont know how to do this :blush:

EldrinFal · Aug 29, 2011

Hydromancerx said:
You know what I think maybe its better if it just was a single building that just upgraded over time.

Town Watch
Cost: 10
Req Tech: Cooperation
Obsolete Tech: -
City Size: 1

+1

-1

+10 Defense (Except Units with High Explosives)

+10% Defense Against Espionage

Helps Thwart Rival Spies

+10% Production for Defensive Leaders

+1 with Fire Making

-1 with Fire Making

+2 with Candle Making

-2 with Candle Making

+2 with Oil Lamps

-2 with Oil Lamps

+4 with Optics

-4 with Optics

+5 with Gas Lighting

-5 with Gas Lighting

+6 with Electricity

-6 with Electricity

+7 with Laser

-7 with Laser

-----

Or a combination of both. Upgrade a bit with new techs, then at a major tech discovery, a new building can be opened up as an upgrade. Then again, a single building requires less buttons and I suspect less work, so that might be a better route.

Hydromancerx · Sep 6, 2011

I am thinking of adding a + :espionage:

and -

to all the tower buildings. Seems to me that they may not be as useful to people. Do you think it would be a good idea?

I also would move Town Watch to say Cooperation and be before Frontier Outpost.

Thus increasing from Town Watch (+1 :espionage:

/-1

) all the way up to Anti-Matter Battery (+13 :espionage:

/-13

).

What do you guys think?

Note this would be just a minor :espionage:

building since it is also a defensive building.

Hydromancerx · Sep 6, 2011

Some more ideas ...

-----

Crucifixion Crosses
Cost: 20
Req Tech: Slavery
Req Building: Good (Wood)
Obsolete Tech: Civil Service
City Size: 1
Upgrades To: Stocks

+5
-5
+1 Unhappy
+1 Unhealthy
+5 Local Stability
+10% Production Speed with Aggressive Leaders

-----

Stocks
Cost: 40
Req Tech: Code of Laws
Req Building: Courthouse AND Good (Wood)
Req Resouce: Iron
Obsolete Tech: Justprudence
City Size: 6
Upgrades To: Gallows

+10
-10
+1 Unhappy
+1 Unhealthy
+10 Local Stability
+10% Production Speed with Aggressive Leaders

-----

Gallows
Cost: 80
Req Tech: Civil Service
Req Building: Courthouse AND Good (Wood) AND Good (Rope)
Obsolete Tech: Marxism
City Size: 6
Upgrades To: Guillotine

+15
-15
+1 Unhappy
+1 Unhealthy
+15 Local Stability
+10% Production Speed with Aggressive Leaders

-----

Guillotine
Cost: 160
Req Tech: Justprudence
Req Building: Courthouse AND Good (Wood)
Req Resouce: Iron
Obsolete Tech: Modern Healthcare
City Size: 6
Upgrades To: ?

+20
-20
+1 Unhappy
+1 Unhealthy
+20 Local Stability
+10% Production Speed with Aggressive Leaders

-----

Electric Chair
Cost: 320
Req Tech: Electricity AND Marxism
Req Building: Courthouse AND Jail
Obsolete Tech: ?
City Size: 6
Upgrades To: Lethal Injection

+25
-25
+1 Unhappy
+25 Local Stability
+10% Production Speed with Aggressive Leaders
Requires Electricity

-----

Lethal Injection
Cost: 640
Req Tech: Modern Healthcare
Req Building: Courthouse AND Jail
Req Resource: Chemicals
Obsolete Tech: ?
City Size: 6
Upgrades To: ?

+30
-30
+1 Unhappy
+30 Local Stability
+10% Production Speed with Aggressive Leaders

-----

Seems like some of these should have civic restrictions. What should I apply to them? Also should there be one after "Lethal Injection"?

Praetyre · Sep 6, 2011

One of my favorite philosophers once wrote a piece which justified a high-tech version of the death penalty, wherein the murderer's life force was sucked out using an elaborate machine and used to revive their victim. Maybe this could be the Space Era death-building, with Mind Uploading or something similar as the prerequisite? Just a thought.

bill2505 · Sep 6, 2011

Praetyre said:
One of my favorite philosophers once wrote a piece which justified a high-tech version of the death penalty, wherein the murderer's life force was sucked out using an elaborate machine and used to revive their victim. Maybe this could be the Space Era death-building, with Mind Uploading or something similar as the prerequisite? Just a thought.

sorry but the game has too many distant future crap not need another one

EldrinFal · Sep 6, 2011

Hydromancerx said:
I am thinking of adding a + and - to all the tower buildings. Seems to me that they may not be as useful to people. Do you think it would be a good idea?

I also would move Town Watch to say Cooperation and be before Frontier Outpost.

Thus increasing from Town Watch (+1/-1) all the way up to Anti-Matter Battery (+13/-13).

What do you guys think?

Note this would be just a minor building since it is also a defensive building.

Towers should probably have Maintenance instead of just negative gold. They are one of those buildings that to me seem like they would be city funded.

I see no problem with them providing some :espionage:

It makes sense. But they should also work as advertised with the sight radius (something Koshling and I talked about in another thread). I think they should also have a chance to spot Invisible units in that radius.

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