Naval Units Rework Project

I'm also thinking of adding a unit ability to establish a zone of control without needing a promo (and perhaps some naval promos for that as well.) Naval/Land ZoC still interacts in C2C because of a subtle difference between Afforess and I's vision on what it means. We see it almost exactly the same way except that he sees it as a threat to attack by the defenders (which I feel would often be welcome to have the defender in those positions give up their defensive positions to attack so if that's what it would mean then in many situations the unit moving would prefer to go ahead and TAKE that attack! Whereas I see it as something akin to suppressive fire holding units down or they'd take significant injury as the enemy is trained on visible locations that any moving unit could not avoid if they were moving through - so as soon as those units stepped into those visible spots the defensive distance weapons are trained in on they'd be shot to heck... with this vision of what it means, ZoC should be establishable on land by a naval unit or vice versa (though I could see disabling land units from enforcing a ZoC on naval plots...))

I believe engine technologies would be taking such significant advances where I put move upgrades that I couldn't see NOT giving them the move upgrades I did. I do think it will be much more under control with the promos being reigned in and the techs being pulled back and coasts costing twice as much movement (which will make the Corvette and Cutters line the fastest along the coast and in the case of the Corvette, the fastest period - though usually no faster than Destroyers in the open ocean.)

There's a hardcoded limit to how much visibility may be obtained (for performance reasons) but I agree - except that I wouldn't want techs to unlock it so much as promos (or better yet equipment.)

Faustmouse said:

I still think that everything over 5 movement is too much. maybe it will work with the changes to the navigation promotions and the techs... But we should have more techs that increase line of sight over water like optics does. Maybe at Radar and Satellites?

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I disagree, movement is fine. And don't we already have Radar and Satellites that increase sight?

The last time I checked it was only Optics. We do have a Radar promotion, but IIRC this was only for Aircraft.

@TB

I was thinking about the droid animal ships.

First I think the Sub should have the squid since they are the animals found in the deepest depths of the ocean. Which leaves the Cruisers without an animal. So my new idea is ...

- Corvette = Marlin (The Marlin is the world's 2nd fastest fish right after the Sailfish)
- Destroyer = Dolphin
- Cutter = Orca (Black And White like Police Colors plus recognizable by the public. Moral type of boost from your defender orca droid coast guard)
- Submarine = Squid (Found in the deepest parts of the ocean, a natural submarine)
- Pirate = Manta Ray (Quick agile, stealthy and dangerous with its stinger tail. Many of the reasons why you wanted it to be a Corvette applies for a pirate ship.)
- Transport = Saltwater Crocodile
- Cruiser = Hammerhead Shark (Cool looking could have missiles coming out of its weird looking head.)
- Repair Ship = Crab
- Battleship = Great White Shark
- Carrier = Humpback Whale
- Troop Ship = Whale Shark (The Largest Fish in the world. Perfect design for long distant ocean travels. Has huge mouth to let troops in and out.)
- Cargo Ship = Sea Turtle (The Shell is a Natural storage device. Can even come to the beach to drop off cargo. Naturally armored against Pirates.)

Hydromancerx said:

I disagree, movement is fine. And don't we already have Radar and Satellites that increase sight?

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You're not saying it's fine as it is now are you? I feel he's right that it too greatly reduces strategic maneuvering on the game map and my movement evaluation here reflects part of the plan to reduce it to something more manageable. It would require that we have some agreement on this that the wooden ship naval speeds should be somewhat reworked as well.

Hydromancerx said:

@TB

I was thinking about the droid animal ships.

First I think the Sub should have the squid since they are the animals found in the deepest depths of the ocean. Which leaves the Cruisers without an animal. So my new idea is ...

- Corvette = Marlin (The Marlin is the world's 2nd fastest fish right after the Sailfish)
- Destroyer = Dolphin
- Cutter = Orca (Black And White like Police Colors plus recognizable by the public. Moral type of boost from your defender orca droid coast guard)
- Submarine = Squid (Found in the deepest parts of the ocean, a natural submarine)
- Pirate = Manta Ray (Quick agile, stealthy and dangerous with its stinger tail. Many of the reasons why you wanted it to be a Corvette applies for a pirate ship.)
- Transport = Saltwater Crocodile
- Cruiser = Hammerhead Shark (Cool looking could have missiles coming out of its weird looking head.)
- Repair Ship = Crab
- Battleship = Great White Shark
- Carrier = Humpback Whale
- Troop Ship = Whale Shark (The Largest Fish in the world. Perfect design for long distant ocean travels. Has huge mouth to let troops in and out.)
- Cargo Ship = Sea Turtle (The Shell is a Natural storage device. Can even come to the beach to drop off cargo. Naturally armored against Pirates.)

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So we'd have the whole column used there... alright - this seems cool.

About the Droid Ships:
Is it really intended that they look exactly like the animals? Biomimetics makes sense to a certain degree but

a) some things just can't evolve in living organism that would be possible with robots and are much more efficient.

b) natural selection is not survival of the fittest but more death of the unfittest. Something doesn't have to be PERFECT, it just has to be good enough.

Having Cargoships look like a Tourtoise makes sense to a certain degree for example. They are mostly round, which would allow the best volume per surface ratio and are still somewhat aquadynamic (?). But a Fusion reactor combined with either a Jet Engine or a Srew Propeller would be more efficient then paddles. And while a more or less round shape makes sense, it is quite impractical since round containers would roll away. You'd have a lot of dead space when transporting normal containers.

Thunderbrd said:

1. You're not saying it's fine as it is now are you? I feel he's right that it too greatly reduces strategic maneuvering on the game map and my movement evaluation here reflects part of the plan to reduce it to something more manageable. It would require that we have some agreement on this that the wooden ship naval speeds should be somewhat reworked as well.

2. So we'd have the whole column used there... alright - this seems cool.

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1. I am not sure what I am saying.

2. Yay!

Faustmouse said:

About the Droid Ships:
Is it really intended that they look exactly like the animals? Biomimetics makes sense to a certain degree but

a) some things just can't evolve in living organism that would be possible with robots and are much more efficient.

b) natural selection is not survival of the fittest but more death of the unfittest. Something doesn't have to be PERFECT, it just has to be good enough.

Having Cargoships look like a Tourtoise makes sense to a certain degree for example. They are mostly round, which would allow the best volume per surface ratio and are still somewhat aquadynamic (?). But a Fusion reactor combined with either a Jet Engine or a Srew Propeller would be more efficient then paddles. And while a more or less round shape makes sense, it is quite impractical since round containers would roll away. You'd have a lot of dead space when transporting normal containers.

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Using the models we have as a base we could then retexture them later to look more robotic.

As for the sea turtle example some other space could be for air to help it stay buoyant in the water. And the flippers could have jets on them to help propel it. Overall I think this is more of a use of what graphics we have vs ones we don't.

Faustmouse said:

About the Droid Ships:
Is it really intended that they look exactly like the animals?

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No... not at all. They are still quite robotic but their form mimics to the extent they can make the most advantage that those forms have naturally. They'd be far too large to be an attempt to 'hide' as these animals.

Faustmouse said:

Biomimetics makes sense to a certain degree but

a) some things just can't evolve in living organism that would be possible with robots and are much more efficient.

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Well of course. Again, the form and its benefits are what they're going for but the similarity nearly stops there.

Faustmouse said:

b) natural selection is not survival of the fittest but more death of the unfittest. Something doesn't have to be PERFECT, it just has to be good enough.

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I wouldn't underestimate nature's ability to find some very optimal concepts and this is what droid mathematical analysis has confirmed about these forms considering naval agility, stealth, and even the psychological intimidation factor against human opponents who's biological 'programming' recognizes these shapes as formidable foes.

Faustmouse said:

Having Cargoships look like a Tourtoise makes sense to a certain degree for example. They are mostly round, which would allow the best volume per surface ratio and are still somewhat aquadynamic (?). But a Fusion reactor combined with either a Jet Engine or a Srew Propeller would be more efficient then paddles.

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Yes, which is why, as Hydro points out, the 'paddles' would simply be engine sources UNLESS they are moving to a 'stealth' mode and allow the 'animal style motility' to propel them in such a manner that defies most technological detection methods. Slower, but can help them slip past enemies undetected (thus Stealth ability).

Faustmouse said:

And while a more or less round shape makes sense, it is quite impractical since round containers would roll away. You'd have a lot of dead space when transporting normal containers.

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I'm sure Droids will fill the rounded spaces with nanomass and processing centers that have great meaning and capability for them so they don't have to play arc-shaped tetris with their stocking procedures.

Hydromancerx said:

1. I am not sure what I am saying.

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Ok, so to ask directly, are you cool with the movement points as given to these ships? If so we need to take a harder look at all the ships before them to adjust their base movements according to some more conservative guidelines.

Hydromancerx said:

2. Yay!

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With Squids as subs I'm beginning to think it would be interesting if they could come up and battle on land so long as the land is coast. And perhaps some of these forms could actually stage a meaningful effort in city defense rather than automatically dying if the city is attacked.

Hydromancerx said:

Using the models we have as a base we could then retexture them later to look more robotic.

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Is this sounding kinda fun or what? Is this something you're going to want to work on or should we be calling in Sparth to take a look into these?

Hydromancerx said:

As for the sea turtle example some other space could be for air to help it stay buoyant in the water. And the flippers could have jets on them to help propel it. Overall I think this is more of a use of what graphics we have vs ones we don't.

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And let's not forget there's some interesting rationale in it for the Droids to be using these form templates that aren't just a matter of making things easier for modders . TBH, these things, if real someday, would be terrifyingly powerful foes!

If you are doing this you should really look at the big gap we have "Mine Warfare". Since Orion Veteran moved it out of Python and into the dll - I can't merge it with C2C.

Thunderbrd said:

I don't think much Sci-Fi has ever been tooooo far off the mark of what could happen.

I'd like to see C2C future be an amalgamation of Terminator, Matrix, the world of Marvel Comics (and maybe some DC too but I'm not too in the know on that stuff), Battletech, Star Trek, Star Wars, and hundreds more. But more importantly to blend them into something that makes reasonable sense.

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Did you ever hear/read/see "The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy" by Douglas Adams. First aired on radio in 1978 (BBC - UK). Predicted the smartphone/Ipad (internet) etc. rather well, except for the "Dont Panic" logo. At least on Earth - unfortunatlely - we will never see the Galatic version - due to the Hyper Space bypass.

Ok, so to ask directly, are you cool with the movement points as given to these ships? If so we need to take a harder look at all the ships before them to adjust their base movements according to some more conservative guidelines.

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Well I liked how Afforess had them generally getting faster as it went and taking advantage of the larger maps. How it balances with all the new units I am unsure of. On things about modern sea battles though is they can move very fast so its harder to block them off. Which I think the game shows well. I men in real life the oceans are huge and unless its a straight or mouth of a bay its going to be hard to ever defend against the hit and run naval units.

Is this sounding kinda fun or what? Is this something you're going to want to work on or should we be calling in Sparth to take a look into these?

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I already sent a PM to him today asking for a re-texture since he seems to be the master at re-texturing units.

With Squids as subs I'm beginning to think it would be interesting if they could come up and battle on land so long as the land is coast. And perhaps some of these forms could actually stage a meaningful effort in city defense rather than automatically dying if the city is attacked.

Click to expand...

Having a land sub i think defeats the purpose of a submarine. Unless it was some sort of digging sub that burrowed underground.

If you are doing this you should really look at the big gap we have "Mine Warfare". Since Orion Veteran moved it out of Python and into the dll - I can't merge it with C2C.

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Indeed the mines should really be added at some point. Both the naval and land mines.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

If you are doing this you should really look at the big gap we have "Mine Warfare". Since Orion Veteran moved it out of Python and into the dll - I can't merge it with C2C.

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Yeah, considering that Corvettes are classically minesweepers I was thinking I'd like to get that done soon.

Harrier said:

Did you ever hear/read/see "The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy" by Douglas Adams. First aired on radio in 1978 (BBC - UK). Predicted the smartphone/Ipad (internet) etc. rather well, except for the "Dont Panic" logo. At least on Earth - unfortunatlely - we will never see the Galatic version - due to the Hyper Space bypass.

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I keep reading the news for anything about Dolphins disappearing. Soon as that happens I'm quite certain all I'll be able to think about is the color yellow. And that it will be time to have a beer.

Hydromancerx said:

Well I liked how Afforess had them generally getting faster as it went and taking advantage of the larger maps. How it balances with all the new units I am unsure of. On things about modern sea battles though is they can move very fast so its harder to block them off. Which I think the game shows well. I men in real life the oceans are huge and unless its a straight or mouth of a bay its going to be hard to ever defend against the hit and run naval units.

Click to expand...

I used to like the speed they have now but I'm going to say I think we should back it off and then move forward from there. I think Faustmouse is right that it's making the game a little less strategic but as you can see from the previous conversations I'm not entirely onboard with limiting them AS MUCH as he's wanting them to be.

I'm not sure how much movement the wooden boats are currently set to... if we ever get those ocean and air currents into the game from the georealism project then it would be nice to have the added wiggle room for modifiers.

If we won't look at the wooden ship movement speeds I'll have to rework these to fit where those leave off.

Hydromancerx said:

I already sent a PM to him today asking for a re-texture since he seems to be the master at re-texturing units.

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Cool

Hydromancerx said:

Having a land sub i think defeats the purpose of a submarine. Unless it was some sort of digging sub that burrowed underground.

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My thought on this was that subs seem to in part be defined as units that have broken barriers other ships are still stuck with. They go underwater where others can't so would it not be fitting that as soon as others CAN, they decide to develop the ability to go on land? lol

Thunderbrd said:

I used to like the speed they have now but I'm going to say I think we should back it off and then move forward from there. I think Faustmouse is right that it's making the game a little less strategic but as you can see from the previous conversations I'm not entirely onboard with limiting them AS MUCH as he's wanting them to be.

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Having more MP and fewer visibility means that ships literally can come out of nowhere without you even realize. Even massive Battleships can pop up suddently and sink your Crusiers with their (then useless) missiles loaded. There is no time to react. And as I said, that Destroyers have +2 MP then Battleships is a HUGE advantage if they had 3 and 5 for example, but if it is 8 and 10 then it won't change much. Even if other ships are better at persuit, this will limit strategy to have a lot of battleships and 1 or 2 persuit units with blitz to clean up.
Also from a realistic point of view, is is far easier to detect ships then making ships faster. Even if you have a radar and visually invisible fleet - they still make noise. Even if you could this back to a minimum - they still stop waves and displace water. And if you could hide this as well somehow, they still have a bigger gravitational pull then air. Sensors are incredible accurate even now and is developing rapidly. So having ships popping out of nowhere without any chance to react is not something that would happen between two equally developed nations. But this is what happens in our game even in the Ren era and all the way up to the future...

Hydromancerx said:

Well I liked how Afforess had them generally getting faster as it went and taking advantage of the larger maps. How it balances with all the new units I am unsure of. On things about modern sea battles though is they can move very fast so its harder to block them off. Which I think the game shows well. I men in real life the oceans are huge and unless its a straight or mouth of a bay its going to be hard to ever defend against the hit and run naval units.

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If your opponents units can move very fast, yours can do so as well. I liked the progression in the techtree as well, but it is just too much. With satellites and incredible accurate sensors you can see ships and calculate their course literally thousends of miles away.

Thunderbrd said:

No... not at all. They are still quite robotic but their form mimics to the extent they can make the most advantage that those forms have naturally. They'd be far too large to be an attempt to 'hide' as these animals.

Well of course. Again, the form and its benefits are what they're going for but the similarity nearly stops there.

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Ok then.

Thunderbrd said:

I wouldn't underestimate nature's ability to find some very optimal concepts and this is what droid mathematical analysis has confirmed about these forms considering naval agility, stealth, and even the psychological intimidation factor against human opponents who's biological 'programming' recognizes these shapes as formidable foes.

Click to expand...

Nature is good at it, but nature is also very lazy so to say. If something works out - why enhance it? Humans would be better with infrared vision, as it helps seeing predators in the night. But there were enough humans that survived without it, so it never evolved.

Thunderbrd said:

Yes, which is why, as Hydro points out, the 'paddles' would simply be engine sources UNLESS they are moving to a 'stealth' mode and allow the 'animal style motility' to propel them in such a manner that defies most technological detection methods. Slower, but can help them slip past enemies undetected (thus Stealth ability).

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I strongly doubt that by the time you have giant robotic turtoise swimming around there aren't detection methods to find them regardless of their motility style.
For graphic reasons, this makes perfect sense of course. But I'd prefer to have them as different looking as possible.

@TB



So Kathy was kind enough to make us a Wooden Sub! Yay!

So that would be a pre-submersible? The submersible would be a steam based sub of course. This is interesting though... will have to add that to the chart.

Thunderbrd said:

So that would be a pre-submersible? The submersible would be a steam based sub of course. This is interesting though... will have to add that to the chart.

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Yeah. The The Drebbel was 1620, so you may want to make this a Clockpunk unit, or at least a limited national unit. Note this would be slow and probably could not attack, but would at least be stealthy underwater. So like an underwater scouting unit.

I remember a show which described early torpedoes. They were on a long arm attached to the sub. The example shown was from an archaeological underwater dig. The sub and ship were sunk. So early subs could attack but they had a chance of being destroyed in the process.

Or they could sneak up under a ship and use a drill to make holes in the hull of the enemy ship.
*laughs all the way out of the thread*

Cheers

Question for DH or whoever knows:

How would we go about making a unit safe (by nature) from naval feature damage? I'm sure I could program it but is there already an established method or is it something that would need developing further?

There is nothing at the moment.

I was working on python to upgrade the reef/coral when a beacon was placed on it to a new improvement reef with beacon which did less damage and had a lower effect on speed of units.