SGOTM 13 - One Short Straw

Civs at war don't hide gold (since it can affect peace terms). The ones at peace will though.

@Mitchum - do you mean Izzy? We should not split the southern armada into smaller stacks against her -- the entire stack needs to grab the gems city (keeper because of commerce) and then sail for Madrid. As long as we take out Madrid before she hits longbows, she should be a pushover.
 
Yes, I meant Izzy. I initially thought you were talking about splitting the Izzy stack but you were actually talking about splitting our eastern stack for the attack on Victoria. I'm fine with splitting it. We should only see archers if we get there soon so she "should" be a pushover.
 
Yaroslav is way too far. The city west of Moscow, we can keep (blanking on the name). I'd check our economics before we decide though, as we're going to have to start razing pretty soon.
In terms of keeping or razing Cathy's Cities, they are all in the same area, so troops can come from any of them equally.

Which is more important--capturing a City that is large enough to whip 3 or 4 troops or capturing a City that is large enough to whip 1 or 2 troops but that is a couple of turns closer to Isabella? The choice is pretty clear: the one that can produce more troops. Why? Keeping a City that is small and/or has low Food is going to be a drain on our economy after it whips a couple of units and will take forever to grow into being able to build new troops, while keeping a larger-sized City that has Food Resources means a constant flow of troops.

There are really 3 main factors to look for in a captured troop-producing City, those being:
- initial population size
- location
- Food Resources available to that City

Yaroslavl' fits all 3, given that it is of reasonable City size, won't be whipped anytime soon (and thus will remain close to a reasonable City size when we capture it), given that it can be captured soon enough to get troops to boats based on its location and is also close enough to a number of other Cities that we will be creating troops from that it will be worth keeping and it's location is Coastal, while it has 2 Food Resouces in the City.


The City to the west is all but useless: assuming that it is on that 1 hidden square, it has a Shared Sheep for Food, meaning that it is already small, it's location is a bit closer to the southern Coast but it is not Coastal, it has no Food of its own, and its only redeeming quality is the access to Gem Resources, which will matter less the more that we have to raise our Cultural Slider and don't matter at all for an additional source of Happiness as we already have a Gem Resource available from one of Willem's Cities. It's a pile of junk in comparison to Yaroslavl' on all counts but being a couple of turns' of movement points closer to a Galleon chain--but if it can only produce a couple of units, then this bonus is meaningless.

Yaroslavl' also has the potential to work Hills based squares after it has been whipped dry.


Let's be sure that we're thinking "big picture" in terms of a City's location--being on another continent greatly reduces the value of the City unless it has a lot of other redeeming factors, but we're talking about Cities on the only multi-City island/continent that we own, which makes the location very good for either Yaroslavl' or the western City, but the other factors make the western City (unless it has been working both Sheep and has Farmed the Grassland squares and worked then and somehow grown)--and even then, if it does have some initial population points, there are no unique Food Resources, meaning that we could just give the Food Resources to the 2 neighbouring Cities (St. Petersburg and Novgorod) and raze the western City itself.


One quick question -- do we want to split our Vicky stack to hit London + her western city at the same time? If we do that and keep her western city, it will make a short canal around that stupid peninsula towards London.
It depends upon how many troops we have hitting her--if we can attack with 2 Galleons at each location, then sure, we can attack at 2 locations simultanously, particularly since Vicky went into Pacifism and likely hasn't been spamming troops as a result.

I would not keep her western City (Hastings). It has pretty much zero potential for giving us new units, what with it being Size 4 and only having a Plains Sheep Resource for a Food Resource (okay, there is one Coastal square that we cannot see--if it is a Magical Fish, we could consider keeping the City, but otherwise I'd raze it outright).

The minor savings of being able to save a turn sailing around the peninsula on the way back out of London (and that's only if we go to the west when I think that we'll probably continue on to the east or the north to find her other Cities, such as by that juicy seafood location in the north) is not worth keeping a City that likely can't even contribute one 2-pop-whip for a very long time.


Is there any way that one of our Galleons for the eastern front can drop off another land-based unit (such as a Maceman) near Vicky that can look for her other Cities before starting the war?


The trickiest thing to manage might be Utrecht. We will probably have to accept a 1 population point loss but we should probably build a unit OTHER than a Maceman, such as a Galleon or a Treb, since we're about to have that City Raider II as a Military Police unit. Let's not be lame by sailing away our City Raider Military Police unit immediately--it can sail away in a couple of turns' worth of time once there is a replacement Military Police unit to take its place, while the Galleon near there should go after Willem's Trireme that is near Rotterdam.

What I will suggest is 100% Cultural Slider on the next turn, which, if we can work all of the Commerce-based squares in Utrecht's 9-square-radius, will give us the 15 Culture needed for a border expansion. That's a difference of about 130 Gold in order to save us a couple of future population points of loss.

To reclaim those Hammers using Gold in another way, we'd have to spend even more Gold to upgrade a Warrior to a Maceman, so it is a worthwhile investment. It also means access to the DYE RESOURCE, which then gives us a global +1 Happiness, which is an investment, meaning that we pay for a high Cultural Slider for one turn in order to be able to run a lower Cultural Slider for future turns that much sooner.


Every whippable population point is a cultivatable Resource that we should strive to make the best use out of. Compare this fact to Size 3 or smaller Cities, where those population points are all but useless to use for whipping--they are the bare minimum of population points that we must "keep in the bank" for a particular City before the City's population becomes useful. For a larger-sized City, however, every population point is meaningful and is useful to use and abuse.
 
EDIT: I didn't realize that civs could "hide" gold from us. I thought that whatever they have would show up on the trading table, just like for techs, even if they wouldn't trade them before the war, all of a sudden are on the trading table. I've never heard of this "hide" gold thing.
iMaxGoldTradePercent

Look it up in the XML.

It's values range from 5 to 30, with most AIs having a value of 5 or 10. Just like the iWonderConstructRand value, it is only one number used in a formula, but it does help to give an estimate of relative amounts of Gold that an AI is willing to share.

Other factors, such as their liking you or not, are involved. I have not looked at the code so I don't have any additional specifics to offer you, but I'm not making it up.

A forum search would likely turn up something on the subject, if you cared enough to look into the issue.
 
We aren't going to be able to afford to keep all these cities. Also, we only want to keep cities that do NOT require garrisons if possible. Having to leave maces behind cuts down on the size of our stack. That being said, I think Yaroslav may actually be a city we can keep unguarded so it might be worth keeping. I'm just worried that we're going to go bankrupt if we don't start razing cities. The GLH is awesome but these new cities are costing 12 gpt (i.e., net negative cash flow). Our military expenses are going to shoot up once we send another 20 units west out of our borders so I'd like to minimize our empire costs if possible.

A turn of culture costs 80 gold. I think it's better to just aggressively whip the cities than to try popping borders.
 
If we want to take Yaroslav first, I would march on it. If we sail there, it's possible that a unit or two of hers could slip past us and head for Moscow, meaning that we would have to leave more city defenders there.
Ummm, okay, I agree that a unit may slip out of Yaroslavl' if we go by Galleon. It is unlikely, but possible. Yet, if it happens, we will be very happy!

I mean, what are we going to do up there?

We have 2 wounded City Raider Macemen and a unit that is just begging to become a Medic III. I find it hard to believe that shyuhe won't move all 3 of these units into Moscow.

That fact leaves us with 2 Macemen--one that is in Moscow can "mostly heal" by taking 2 promotions and immediately boarding a Galleon and one more Maceman in our stack. We have multiple Trebs, which means Bombarding and collateral damage, but that situation only gives us 2 Macemen to take on 3 City Defenders.

So, it would be IDEAL if Cathy left Yaroslavl' with 1 unit.

I'm not sure what else to do there--take one of the really wounded Macemen? Probably not.

I would take all 5 Trebs with us--the 2 wounded ones can do some Bombarding, and with 20% Cultural Defences and no City Wall, they are ripe for the task--16 City Defences removes each, and 20 - 16 - 16 = 0.

That gives us up to 3 Trebs to attack with and 2 Macemen.

So, we'll probably Bombard for one round, attack with 2 or 3 Trebs so that hopefully, both Macemen can win, then hopefully be able to capture the City on the following turn. That stuff all sounds a bit risky, so maybe we should bring along one of the wounded Macemen as a backup unit--it would only need to kill a Spearman anyway, so yeah, it's probably better to bring the least wounded of those 2 wounded City Raider Macemen as our 3rd Mace in the stack.

Galleon 0, therefore, should join the other 2 Galleons as part of the stack that will collect the 5 Trebs and 3 Macemen on the following turn.


There is also the possibility of picking-up The Hague's Macemen, since one of the 3 Galleons, after picking up 5 Trebs and our two non-wounded Macemen (leaving the 2 wounded Macemen and the Medic III unit in or next to Moscow--the Medic would go into Moscow but the other 2 might heal just as quickly or faster by not moving, although for safety's sake from Cathy's "wandering units," the 3 of these units should probably just all go into Moscow), could enter The Hague, unload a wounded Treb, and load the Military Police unit in The Hague.

That would give us 4 Trebs and 3 mostly-healthy Macemen that could be landed on T + 2 at Yaroslavl'.
 
We aren't going to be able to afford to keep all these cities. Also, we only want to keep cities that do NOT require garrisons if possible. Having to leave maces behind cuts down on the size of our stack. That being said, I think Yaroslav may actually be a city we can keep unguarded so it might be worth keeping. I'm just worried that we're going to go bankrupt if we don't start razing cities. The GLH is awesome but these new cities are costing 12 gpt (i.e., net negative cash flow). Our military expenses are going to shoot up once we send another 20 units west out of our borders so I'd like to minimize our empire costs if possible.
Providing a steady stream of troops should be the #1 factor for keeping a City.

Why does this fact matter? Well, a steady stream of troops means a steady stream of City captures, and a steady stream of City captures will prevent us from going bankrupt.

Also, Cities with Hills squares can, in desperate times, work the Hammer-based squares while building Wealth, then every few turns whip the populatoin gained from the Food-based squares. Yaroslavl' is a prime example of a City that is able to do both.

Each Coastal City = an abosolute minimum of 9 Commerce. The more Happiness Resources that we get within our Cultural Borders, the lower that we can run the Cultural Slider while still avoiding population loss, thereby putting more of our earned Commerce back into Gold.


A turn of culture costs 80 gold. I think it's better to just aggressively whip the cities than to try popping borders.
Dyyyyyyeeees. Dyyyyyeees. Dyyyyeeees. See the hidden "yes" in there? Say "yes" to immediate "Dyes" with a quick Cultural Border expansion in Utrecht. :)

This 1 turn of 100% Culture gives us access to:
- A Clam at The Hague
- A GHRiver Mine at The Hague
- 2 Dyes Resources that can be worked for Commerce at Utrecht
- A GPig at Utrecht
- A temporary Clam at Utrecht (until Willem steals it back)
- A Flood Plains Town at Amsterdam sooner
- An Irrigated GCorn Farm at Amsterdam sooner
- A GH Copper Mine at Amsterdam sooner
- A G Gem Mine at Rotterdam slightly sooner

It's a very worthwhile investment.
 
the entire stack needs to grab the gems city (keeper because of commerce)
I think that this western Gem City is a stinker instead of a keeper because:
1. There is only 1 Grassland Gem Mine (unless we expand the borders there, too, which won't be as easy to do with a Cultural Slider as it is for Willem's Cities since it'll probably take multiple turns due to the low amount of other Commerce sources within its 9-square-radius and likely small population size)
2. At best there are 2 Grassland Gem Mines
3. It is not Coastal, so only 2 Trade Routes (making it hard for it to come close to paying for itself)
4. Having no unique Food Resources (unless the City is not on top of that hidden black square and is next to that hidden square AND the hidden square contains a Food Resource)
5. Likely starting with a low population (meaning few or no 2-pop-whips) from having low Food
6. Only 1 Hills square for possibly building Wealth
7. No new unique Resources

I see extremely little incentive to keep this City. If you want to talk about Cities being a drag on our economy, this one will be it (which starts off with a minimum 4 less Commerce than any Coastal City will, due to not being able to benefit from The Great Lighthouse). How can 1 Gem Resource (and no Food and very little Hammer-based production) overcome this initial deficit and also provide enough whipping value to be worth keeping?
 
Oh, I thought the gems city is coastal. If it's not, then raze.
Well, I'm not positive, but from the T190 saved game, it LOOKS like there were only 9-square-radius Cultural Borders in that area, which, if I am interpreting things correctly, would place the City NE of the eastern G Gem, which would landlock it.

If it is indeed coastal and I misinterpreted that detail, then I think that we'd need to see a Food Resource appear in the currently-hidden square for the City to be worth keeping.
 
Now that we have easily broken Cathys back, and she is looking weaker than expected, and is still in CS/pacifism I don't think it is sensible to keep the bulk of our forces deployed against her.

I think we should send our Southern stack(with a little reinforcement) against Izzy now, leaving the northern one to finish off Cathy. On the Russian front I think our priority should be Russia's new capital, though I would support taking Yaroslav first if it would not delay us attacking this city.

I also think that we should start raising the less important cities, and unless the 2 gems site is much better than expected this includes that city. I'd also include Yaroslav on that list. I also think that it is worth running the slider at 100%, for 1T we can easily afford it.

Is there any way we could get a bit more scouting done? It would be a shame to have our victory date delayed by 10T whilst we went around looking for a lone AI island city.
 
For the St. Petersburg troops, unlike the Moscow ones, I think that it's probably in our best interests to march our units across the land. In that way, we can leave St. Petersburg lightly defended with just the really-wounded Maceman that is in there now with only a small chance of a counter-attack appearing from anywhere.


I.e. move those troops NW onto the GHRiv Sheep, to block the Road, then probably SW onto the Grassland Road (even though 1W would be a PHFor, we aren't being counter-attacked yet and being on the Grassland Road puts us next to the Coast for being able to board our Galleons faster after taking that western City.


Okay, I see how in the current game the western Gem City DOES look Coastal, in that the Road on that Grassland square only seems to go west, instead of also going north-west, while every City square gets a Road in it by default. So, you might be right about the City being Coastal, but without a unique Food Resource, I don't foresee us having a need for it (since the City would be of a small size if there isn't another Food Resource on that hidden square).
 
We have all of Willem's cities accounted for. I think we know where all of Ragnar's cities are although the 4th is still in the fog. Izzy and Joao are mysteries, as is Vicky to a lesser extent. I think Cathy has one or two offshore cities to the west.

I can live with razing gems. I'm not sure about breaking off to go hunt Izzy though. If we go with that plan, where are we going to send the troops from the ex-Dutch lands? Just mop-up Willem and start on Ragnar?
 
I'd still like for Cathy to be the first AI eliminated, to reduce the spreading of Feudalism.

Attacking Isabella a tiny bit faster would possibly help in the war against her, but not if it meant that Feudalism ended up getting traded-around as a result of our delay in killing Cathy.

I also prefer to get a few more reinforcements from Willem's Cities before going after Isabella, meaning that we should have time to at least take on the western Gem City before going towards Isabella. As it is, we have only 3 Maces in our southern stack, and if we don't go after the Gem City, we'll probably have to leave one of those Maces around to protect the wounded unit in St. Petersburg.

If we can hit Isabella with 4 Galleons' worth of troops, then we can hit her hard and also hit follow-up Cities with relative ease. With less Galleons worth' of troops, we'll be forced to raze all Cities as we won't be able to defend them, and our advance may stall with only 9 troops if she ends up getting Feudalism shortly.


mdy said:
I'd also include Yaroslav on that list.
As for Yaroslavl': how are 2 Food Resources, 2 Hills squares, 3 nearby Forests to Chop, a decent-sized population, and the fact that the City is on the same continent as other Cities from which we will be whipping units summing up to still being insufficient criteria for us to capture it?


mdy said:
Is there any way we could get a bit more scouting done?
Well, we could probably drop a Treb off at Vicky with little issue, although it would probably be a lot better to drop off a Maceman, in case of Barb units or in case of us wanting to declare war when the scouting unit is out of position.


Alternatively, and what might work better, is that we could drop the Treb off somewhere on Vicky's western Coast, so that it can replace the Warrior's duty of advance scouting for Joao's fleet. Doing so would allow the Warrior to head east to explore Vicky's area.


Cathy has almost certainly expanded off-continent, given the number of Cities that she has, but we should have time to find her before the game is nearing completiong.

Ragnar probably has his 4th City on his continent, while we know where Willem's Cities are located.

As for Joao and Isabella, we'll probably just have to "wing it," since they are somewhat far away from us.
 
Do we really still need that warrior to be on the lookout for Joao? His galleys could sneak by anyway if he takes a southern route if I remember correctly. Plus, we will soon have tons of galleons and two triremes around that can sink his fleet if it gets near. I'd use that warrior to start scouting Victoria now...
 
If you do take the land-route towards the western Gem City, then I suggest first sending a single unit to the GH River Sheep to the NW on T + 1, so that you'll see if there are troops coming towards St. Petersburg from the NW and will be able to respond to them.

For T + 0, it's probably worth moving 1 Maceman into St. Petersburg while leaving the other 2 to defend our Treb stack.
 
Cathy has a monopoly on feudalism and will not trade it around. Willem is the only other AI who has valuable techs so we should try to eliminate him quickly (using his own citizens, I might add :evil:).

I'd rather hit Izzy now, especially Madrid, before she gets feudalism. We will be razing all of her cities, I think. She had one of the least powers of the AI (no metal) so she will only have archers (and maybe mounted units who are no threat). The sooner we hit her, the sooner we can break her tech (and Madrid accounts for a bunch of it). So I'm ok with mdy's suggestion of skipping gems and going straight for Madrid.

The hill squares next to Yaroslav meaningless - we will only want troops made by the whip at this point. The game will wrap up in another 20 turns, 30 max. I think Yaroslav can be kept since we don't need to garrison the city (I think).
 
Do we really still need that warrior to be on the lookout for Joao? His galleys could sneak by anyway if he takes a southern route if I remember correctly. Plus, we will soon have tons of galleons and two triremes around that can sink his fleet if it gets near. I'd use that warrior to start scouting Victoria now...

There is no southern route. His boats HAVE to pass by our warrior. But I agree - now that we have boats over there, we can move the warrior again.
 
It's too bad that we're not closer to getting a GS. He could bulb Paper and we could buy/sell maps to get a lay of the land...
We do have The Parthenon, so at least we're getting 3 passive GPP in Paris per turn. Not nearly enough to matter, though.


His galleys could sneak by anyway if he takes a southern route if I remember correctly. Plus, we will soon have tons of galleons and two triremes around that can sink his fleet if it gets near.
The big risk is that he can land troops before we spot him and are able to mobilize a reaction.


The Warrior's current position is about as good as it gets, since there really is only one path to us and that's to the east of that Warrior. To the SW of that Warrior is an island, which Joao could reach, but it is separated by Ocean from us. Of course, Joao expanding on that (very Jungly) island to the SW and expanding his Cultural Borders could give him a shortcut, but if we're going to send a Treb to replace that Warrior's position, we could probably make sure that the Galleon passes by that Jungly island (that has a Clam Resource) to the SW of where the Warrior at Vicky is currently located, just to check to see if Joao has a City there.
 
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